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Episode Description
Hostess Ashley McGuire chats with Ryan Anderson of the Ethics and Public Policy Center on the future of the pro-life movement and why we need a pro-family and pro-chastity movement to change the culture. Anderson reveals that 87 percent of women who have abortions are unmarried, making support for the traditional structure of marriage an essential antidote to an abortion-minded culture. He also shares how the prevalence of non-marital sex turns abortion into contraception, requiring a transformation of values in hearts and minds to ultimately protect unborn life.
We also dive into a new Leadership Virtues Series with Dr. Joseph McInerny of the Knights of Columbus who invites all of us, but especially men, to sign up for this virtual boot camp in living a virtuous life! In contrast to many programs today, Dr. McInerny offers a virtue based perspective on ethical leadership, and focuses on the transformative power of a Christ-centered approach to leadership – based on insights from the greatest leader of all time, Jesus.
Father Roger Landry also offers an inspiring homily to prepare us for this Sunday’s Gospel.
Bios
Ashley McGuire is a Senior Fellow with The Catholic Association and co-host of the nationally syndicated radio show, Conversations with Consequences. She is also the author of the book, Sex Scandal: The Drive to Abolish Male and Female. She has written for numerous news outlets and spoken on major television networks, and serves as a prominent voice for the pro-life movement and religious liberty. She is also a mother of five children.
Ryan T. Anderson is an author, researcher, public speaker, and President of the Ethics and Public Policy Center. He has authored or co-authored five books and his research has been cited in two US Supreme Court cases. Anderson has appeared on national news outlets and been published in major newspapers, magazines, and journals of law. He received his Bachelor of Arts degree from Princeton and his doctoral degree from the University of Notre Dame. Previously a senior researcher at the Heritage Foundation, he holds fellowships at the University of Dallas, James Madison Society of Princeton, and the Catholic University of America, among others.
Dr. Joseph McInerny is Founder and Principal at the consulting firm, Annapolis Leadership, and Director of Leadership and Ethics Education for the Knights of Columbus. A retired Navy captain with thirty years of service, he also served as Chairman of the Department of Leadership, Ethics and Law, and a Professor of Ethics and Applied Leadership at the US Naval Academy in Annapolis. He graduated from the Catholic University of America with a doctorate in moral philosophy, and holds a Bachelor’s Degree in History from the US Navy Academy, as well as a Masters of Theological Studies from the Pontifical Lateran University. He published his first book in 2016, and his second work is currently in production.
Father Roger Landry is a priest of the Diocese of Fall River, Massachusetts. He writes for numerous publications, speaks on radio and TV, and is the author of the book, Plan of Life: Habits to Help You Grow Closer to God. A graduate of Harvard and the Pontifical North American College in Rome, he served as Attaché to the Holy See’s Permanent Observer Mission to the UN in New York. Father Landry traversed the full 1500-mile Eucharist Pilgrimage this past summer and joined the historic Eucharistic Congress in Indianapolis, an event which coincided with his 25th year in the priesthood. He was recently appointed the new National Director of the Pontifical Mission Societies in the USA.
The following transcript is machine generated.
Episode 291 Transcript
| Ashley | Hello friends, and welcome to Conversations with Consequences. We are the radio show and podcast of the Catholic Association where we aim to change the culture one conversation at a time. You can listen to conversations with Consequences on the EWTN Global Catholic Radio Network Saturday mornings at 7 a.m. Eastern, or catch the encore at 5 p.m.. We are also on Sirius XM Channel 130. Of course, our radio show is also a podcast. Go to the Catholic Association Board or directly to wherever you listen to your podcast. Welcome to the show. Welcome to Conversations with Consequences. I'm your host today, Ashley McGuire, and we're so fortunate to have back with us our friend Ryan Anderson. Ryan is a prolific writer. He's written many books and many more articles, and he's also the president of the Ethics and Public Policy Center. A very consequential think tank in Washington, D.C.. Welcome to the show, Ryan. |
| Ryan Anderson | Hey, thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be with you again. |
| Ashley | Hey, and before we launch into talking about your very interesting article in First Things, I understand that congratulations are in order and that you are expecting another baby. |
| Ryan Anderson | Well, yes, I was I was going to mildly correctly say my wife is expecting to be discussing my transgender ideology. |
| Ashley | Yes, that's true. We've both written books about sex differences. So we should I should I should be more clear on that. Well, congratulations to you and to your wife. So thank. |
| Ryan Anderson | You. And I don't know when this will air, but, you know, as you were recording, it was yesterday morning that we discovered our cow gave birth. So I thought we're going to congratulations on the baby cow. But it is even better. |
| Ashley | Congratulations on both babies. Well, speaking of babies, we wanted to talk with you today about your article in First things entitled The Way Forward After Dobbs and I have it all marked up, because it's a really important read and a very clear eyed analysis of where we are after this consequential overturning of Roe v Wade in the Supreme Court. And you you make it clear that, yes, we we won the big legal battle that we've been fighting for 50 years, but in the meantime, we've essentially lost the culture. How so? |
| Ryan Anderson | Yeah. So and I, I may not say it that strongly that we lost the culture, but we lost ground in the culture. I think I would phrase it that way. I'll only because I think how to enter into the essay because, you know, the essay is like four or 5000 words long. So they get a lot of points along the way. But one of the points that I make is that a lot of the the best parts of the pro-life movement and the most consequential, especially like in D.C., were the legal parts of it. It was, you know, the parts of the pro-life movement that were focused on overturning Roe, because the pro-life movement knew that so long as Roe v Wade was the precedent of the land, it would prevent legal protection for unborn babies. And you look at something like the Federalist Society, you look at something like Alliance Defending Freedom, you know, ATF, massive law firm that, you know, helped shepherd the Supreme Court case that overturn Roe Spencer, the group that's responsible for all of the justices that voted to overturn Roe. Those groups are very sophisticated. They're very strategic. They're very well-funded. But we don't have anything like that on the cultural side. And, you know, many of the single issue pro-life groups, Susan, be at the newest as well. They've been doing great work, SBA list, you know, getting pro-life members of Congress and the Senate elected so they could then vote to confirm those justices. Right. As well, doing a lot of the state legal work. But we don't have anything trying to reform culture. We don't have anything with the same sophistication geared towards the churches. And then the second thought I would add is that it's also the case that it's, to my mind, not primarily about the sanctity of life as such, but it's about the sacrifices people are willing to make to recognize and respect the sanctity of life. And all of those sacrifices intersect with the sexual revolution. And so at some point in the essay, I make the point that there are a lot of people who, you know, I quote Bill Maher and Bill Maher says, look, the pro-life activists say that abortion is murder and they're kind of right. I just don't care. Or, you know, I'm just, you know, in essence, not willing to make sacrifices on my sex life because sex makes babies. And then a certain number of those babies, people are not going to be willing to sacrifice to care for or people aren't going to be willing to refrain from sex outside of marriage. And there's nothing like a pro chastity movement in the United States and so go glad. |
| Ashley | That was really kind of one of my key takeaways. And you do such a good job of of citing this statistic because of how even among people who go to church and go to church regularly, we're in the single digits for people who are, you know, chaste on their wedding night. And and even, you know, when it comes to abortion, I think you had a statistic in there, something like 30% of women who had abortions go to church, like once a month or something. Yep. And so it really shed a light on the fact that I think you make this point in the article that, you know, maybe where we need to start is with people who go to church. And I, I love the idea of of a kind of a revamped chastity movement. I mean, what would that look like to you? Is this something I mean, because, you know, we grew up around the same time and this was when, you know, talking about chastity was considered almost moronic like you were you were mocked, even though even though it still remains the, you know, the single best way to not have an unplanned or unwanted pregnancy. But how do we make chastity cool again? |
| Ryan Anderson | Right. I mean, I think at one point in the SCA say something like, you know, no one wants to be a professional prude. Right? And there's some truth to that, because you're right, It's not going to be cool. And it's going to you know, it's hard to raise money for this, like, you know, which donors want to be saying I'm donating to the chastity cause. Like, what foundation or institution wants it to be a single issue, chastity organization, etc., etc.. And one other point in the essay, I say something like before we try convincing the secular world to live by a Christian sexual ethic. We might try convincing Christians to live by a Christian sexual ethic. And so I think I mean, the church is is the place to start. JP Taggart's I imagine he's a friend of yours? A friend of mine. He has really done just great work with his organization called Communion, which is meant to come alongside parishes, local churches and help them with their marriage ministries. But he's discovered is it something like 80% of parishes don't have a marriage ministry? And of those that do have a marriage ministry, they have nothing after like prenup. And so his perspective is, you know, if we can get more people married and if we can then help people stay married, you know, this is going to be good for the church, good for evangelization. Part of his argument, he has all sorts of data that shows had Americans simply kept getting married at the same rates, we wouldn't have seen any decline in church membership or church attendance that, you know, the causal link here. And Mary Eberstadt had made this point in her book about secularization is that, you know, the mutually reinforcing idea, for good or ill, is as families fail to form, as families break down, so too does religious adherence. And then as religious adherence starts to wane, so too does marriage and family formation. Right. And so they're mutually supportive, for good or ill. Two other statistics to share I wanted to look up what are the stats about who gets aborted and who has abortions. And so the two statistics that I shares, it's 4% of babies conceived inside of marriage that will be aborted, contrasted to 40% of babies who are conceived outside of marriage. It's almost half of babies conceived outside of marriage will be aborted. So that's the one who will be aborted stat. The other stat is who has an abortion. Of all of the abortions that take place in the United States, 13% of them were performed on married women. 87% of them were performed on unmarried women. And so that just leads me to the conclusion that marriage is the greatest protector of unborn babies because marriage attaches, you know, the man and the woman to each other as husband and wife to then be father and mother to any kids that their sexual relationship produces. You know, even as I say that, I'm like that was like the talking point that we used over a decade ago in the same sex marriage debate. Right. These truths haven't changed. Human nature being what it is. Our embodiment is male and female, the sex drive being what it is, the sex drive hasn't changed. But if marriage rates keep declining and if the age of first marriage keeps getting delayed, there's going to be more and more non-marital sex. The non-marital sex is going to create non-marital pregnancies. And then a certain percentage of of parents will say, I'm not prepared to be a parent and they will choose to abort their child. And I think that's going to need to be a new area of focus for the pro-life movement. And I and you know, and we're going to have to get there. We're not yet there. But, you know, people are thinking about this. And, you know, I think in particular, the church can be a starting point for this. And I think some of the work that JP has been doing with communion with the good is a good model of where to start. |
| Ashley | Yeah. And it just makes sense. I mean, I was so struck when I saw that since the advent of the hormonal birth control pill, the percentage of pregnancies that are quote unquote unplanned in this country went up. And the only thing that's changed is that the percentage of couples that have made a lifelong commitment to each other and to whatever comes down the road, including those pregnancies you weren't expecting or planning on has has plummeted. And so, you know, of course, we're going to just see rampant abortion rates. Another point that you made in the beginning of your essay is about the law as a teacher and and the fact that we've had 50 years of what you call the darkening of our national conscience. So 50 years of of the law telling us from the absolute highest level that abortion is okay and not just okay, but is an inherent right that's intrinsically tied to the flourishing of women. And I was thinking about the fact that, you know, we we had the same thing with the Supreme Court, with with slavery. And then segregation. And it took it took decades to untangle that socially and to to teach people that racism is inherently wrong and is a sin. And I mean, how you know, many people have said that the election of President Trump sort of buys us some time to stop some of the bleeding at the state level with these abortion ballot initiatives and and to try and and so new seeds culturally. But is it enough time I mean, how much time do we need to to teach people basically to start over with people and to try and teach people who, as you point out, will look at an ultrasound and know that that's a baby, has a beating heart, but that ending its life is is intrinsically evil. |
| Ryan Anderson | Yeah, there's so much there. Let me try to answer in kind of like three, three thoughts. One is that I think that the pedagogical the teaching impact of Roe v Wade wasn't just like the head knowledge that, you know, abortion is a right and therefore the unborn have no rights. But it was also was a habituation into the lifestyle of the sexual revolution, the lifestyle of the hookup culture, the lifestyle of the normalization of non-marital sex because to a certain extent, it's both contraception, as you had mentioned earlier. So the Griswold decision and then Roe v Wade that are like the technologies of contraception and abortion and then the bad, you know, unconstitutional Supreme Court rulings, activism from the court that fueled that allowed the sexual revolution to take place. And people have always wanted to have sex outside of marriage. Right. Human nature hasn't changed. It's always been a temptation. It's always been something people desired. But it was much more limited prior to these technological innovations. There's a paper by Janet Yellen and her husband, George Akerlof, where they point out that look, the reason that you saw this statistic, you mentioned that after the advent of the contraceptive pill and after people were taking it, you know, on a regular basis, you actually saw abortion rates go up and marriage rates go down. Is that it was now? Well, it's your body, your choice. Right. And so there was no kind of expectation of the shotgun wedding, which used to be a cultural norm, that premarital sex was truly premarital. It wasn't non-marital. And the idea being that, you know, if you slept with someone and you were pregnant, it would then lead to doing the right thing, marrying the person, taking responsibility, etc., etc.. So so one thought is just that Roe v Wade not only taught us that abortion is right, the unborn have no rights, but it has habituated us. It's allowed for two generations of misguided sexual behavior. Second is that you see the big change in public opinion. And I cite a bunch of Gallup polls right around 2016. And I think what that shows, that public opinion have largely been stable for decades. And I think with Scalia dying and then Senate Majority McConnell leaving the seat open so that the people could decide during the election who they wanted to nominate, Scalia's successor, and then Trump winning that election. I think a lot of people started saying, wait, like there's a real possibility that Roe could be overturned and that means I could have skin in the game in the sense of it could be my abortion or my girlfriend's abortion or my daughter's abortion that would now be prohibited. And so you see just, you know, really significant change of general public opinion. And then I break it down. Young women or young people in general, women in particular, and then Democrats in particular, just huge divergence and really bad in terms of like next generation. It's something like 80 some percent of 20 and 30 year olds right now favor first trimester abortion and then women. It's been like a ten point change. And then Democrats, it's more or less abortion on demand. So, you know, Kamala Harris was now out of step with the base of her party. And I think what that symbolizes is just that, you know, some of it might have been a backlash to Trump. Who knows? But I think it was more what he symbolized and then what he and his justices accomplished, which was the overturning of Roe. And I used the line that, you know, historically people have said I'm in favor of three exceptions rape, incest, life for the mother. What we're discovering in these ballot initiatives that voters want a fourth exception exception, which is my case where I get my daughter, my wife, whoever. So that's the second last night is there has been the huge unanswered lies that the media and activists have told about these state pro-life laws. So much of I think the reason why you take those first two changes and then you add in the third explains why we're been losing at the state ballot initiatives is that there are genuinely people who think miscarriage will now be illegal ectopic pregnancy. You will not be able to get treatment for it. You know, mothers will be dying because of these pro-life laws, despite the fact that every state that has a pro-life law on the books has explicit provisions in those very pro-life laws that, you know, no one will be denied lifesaving medical care, no one will be denied treatment for miscarriage or ectopic pregnancy. But pro-lifers were consistently outspent. We were outspent 15 to 1 in the Missouri ballot initiative from last week. We were outspent 10 to 1 in Florida. And the only reason we even won in Florida was because it was a 60% threshold. DeSantis did heroic efforts in combating the media lies. But unless you have a politician like DeSantis, pro-life activists don't get to go on, you know, the mainstream television shows and radio shows in the same way that the political class does and, you know, maybe this is a fourth point, I would say with few exceptions in the Santos fantasies, one of the exceptions, many of our political leaders have retreated from the battle and they've run away from the issue. And we saw how President Trump himself at first he criticized the Florida law, and it was only after pushback from pro-life activists that he then said, you know, look, I'm going to vote against the pro-abortion ballot initiative. But he said he thought six weeks was too soon, that women needed more time to decide what time they decide what to kill their baby. Right. And so we're not getting the pro-life leadership from the top that we need to shape public opinion. |
| Ashley | Well, speaking of over the top, we're going to have a very interesting shift here with not just President Trump, but also Vice President J.D. Vance and, you know, you mentioned these states and how they all have these explicit life of the mother exceptions. And they also many of these states that have passed very strong pro-life measures have done it in tandem with very generous to the tune of tens of millions of dollars programs to help women. And there's definitely, I sense a shift among some that think that what we need to do is lead with more of a kind of like set aside the abortion topic and instead focus on pro-family politics and and legislation that prioritizes the family that that helps make it a better environment for women to bring their babies into the world. And this has definitely been at the center of of J.D. Vance's career. And, you know, you allude to this in your article that this can be good, but we also have to be careful that we're not just creating more reverse incentives and so I want to get your take also on this new piece by Emma Green entitled The New Pro-Life Playbook that just came out in The New Yorker, where she talks about this and the kind of a shifting of the party towards prioritizing the family or what she calls the family's turn. What's your take on the piece and what's your take on this? Push by some in the party, spearheaded very much by J.D. Vance to to make family politics first and foremost, or at the center of our our conversation on these issues. |
| Ryan Anderson | Yeah, great series of questions. So a couple of thoughts. One of the things that I, I say in the first things I said is, is a quote, a report that colleagues of mine at ABC put together, and they looked at every state in the two years post jobs that had passed a pro-life law protecting unborn babies also passed a wide variety of measures, assisting the mothers of those babies. And some states did this to the tune of like millions of dollars. This is, you know, pre. DOBBS But a good example of this is back when Texas passed its heartbeat bill. And remember, Texas found a way of going around on Roe v Wade by making it like a private right of action, like a civil procedure where there was no government official who would be enforcing the provision. And so there was nothing for the court to kind of strike down that same session of the Texas legislature. They also allocated an additional $100 million a year to the Texas Alternatives to Abortion program. Right. And so here you have like a deep red state saying, look, we want to both protect babies from lethal violence and we're going to do a six week bill. We're also going to put money where our mouth is and actually provide funding for alternatives to abortion. Every state in America that passed pro-life laws in the aftermath of Dobbs did something like that. Many of them did multiple things like that, right? You know, states would expand how much medical care, how much paid family leave, how much support in terms of like diapers, all sorts of things like this. I think all of that is good. The cautions that I then add about this in the first things I say is, one, we can't allow this to be a distraction or an alternative to actually passing the laws that protect the babies from the lethal violence. I think there's been a temptation to say, instead of talking about abortion, we'll talk about family policy or, you know, instead of talking about abortion, we'll talk about paid family leave or we'll talk about expanding Medicaid eligibility for women, etc., etc.. And so I think we have to avoid it needs to be a both and not an either or. But then the second thing and this was something that a different one of our ABC scholars has pointed out, is that if I'm correct, that marriage is the greatest protector, have been born babies. We don't want to create welfare incentives for non-marital relationships and non-marital sex. So, you know, his big project at ABC is actually eliminating all of the marriage penalty, is in the tax code and in the welfare system, because right now poor people are not stupid. And right now you get more welfare benefits if you cohabitate with your lover rather than marry your lover. And, you know, we don't want our welfare system actually incentivizing the behaviors that then lead to abortion. And so this is why it's it's important that if we are going to be telling a young woman you cannot kill your unborn baby, that we rally around that young woman and provide her with support she needs. But what she needs most is a husband. And, you know, it's politically incorrect to say that, but marriage and family is actually what is the long term solution here. So we need to make sure that any temporary financial supports that we provide are not at odds with the long term structural supports that all of us need right now. You and I could not be doing what we're doing with our kids if we didn't have our spouses. I mean, there's a reason why God designed us this way. And so it's important that the public policy doesn't for short term gain, doesn't set up long term setbacks. |
| Ashley | Well, you more than anyone I can think of, really have been out there sounding the alarm on on the importance of marriage and its connection to all of these issues and the need to strengthen and protect it. So thank you for that work and thank you for your time today and joining us and I could talk about this all day, but we're out of time. So thank you so much, Ryan, and thank you. And for our listeners, you can go to the Ethics and public policy Center's website, I'm sure, to find out more information to find Can they find your articles there as well? |
| Ryan Anderson | Yep. Each of our scholars, if you go to the BBC dot org web page. |
| Ashley | Well, it's always fun to talk with Ryan Anderson about the life issue and about marriage. I think of him as really the epitome of the happy warriors that were called to be, and he just does such a great job of breaking down the issues, helping us to understand why it is that we are where we are and helping us to think through where we need to go next. And I think that as pro-lifers, it's important that we be at peace about where we are. And I think Ryan really embodies that piece and gives us a lot to think about, challenges us, and that's important. We can't we can't be complacent. So what a gift to have him on. Will have to have him back and for a part to maybe he and I can discuss our We both have books on sex differences and gender ideology. Another really difficult but important topic. So wonderful to have Ryan on. And next, we're going to turn to a special guest from the Knights of Columbus, who is going to be talking to us about a really important video series that they've produced on Virtues. And goodness knows that our culture is so lacking in virtue and I think really craving virtue and hungry for it. And so I think you're going to be really excited to hear about this important video series that they're producing, which is exactly what the culture needs right now. So stay tuned. Welcome back to Conversations with Consequences. I am your host is Ashley McGuire, and I'm very happy to introduce our guest, who is Dr. Joseph McInerney. He is a retired United States Navy captain and the vice president of leadership. And Ethics, Education for the Knights of Columbus. Welcome to the show, Joe. |
| Dr. Joseph McInerny | It's so good to be with you, Ashley. Thanks for having me. |
| Ashley | Well, thank you. And, you know, we just mark Veterans Days, thank you also for your service to our country in the Navy. How long did you serve in the Navy? |
| Dr. Joseph McInerny | I served 29 years active and one year in the Reserves. So 30 in total. |
| Ashley | Wow. Well, thank you so much for that service. And now you're with the Knights of Columbus, which is an amazing fraternal organization that does so much both here and around the world. I think it's it's got to be one of America's most known and beloved charitable and fraternal organizations. And and you have in your capacity there, helped to launch a new video series called the Leadership Virtues Series. Can you tell us about this project and and what prompted you to to make this video series? |
| Dr. Joseph McInerny | Well, there were a couple of things that came together to the at the genesis of the series. First is is really Patrick Kelley's vision for the Knights. One aspect of that vision is that the Knights can be a place where men can go to become great leaders. And and so we want to develop a leadership curriculum that would help men really leverage the experience they get in the Knights. One of the great things about the Knights is if you spend any time in the organization, you'll likely end up in a leadership position and to learn leadership. The best way to do it is to practice it in a position that gives you leadership responsibility. So the Knights often offer that what we want to do is match a curriculum that enables people to reflect on those experiences and draw draw good conclusions from them, and then and then actually practice to be good leaders. So so that's, that's the foundation. And then and then within that, the Knights have have established what they call the core initiative, which is really revitalizing the Knights, reengaging the men of the Knights of Columbus with the spiritual roots of the Catholic tradition. Getting back to the core. Core meetings are formulated so men pray, they do some formation, and then they spend time in fraternity with one another. So So we wanted to develop some videos and content for the formation part of the core meeting. And so these videos were designed to to for men to look at. And we're developing a curriculum of questions and background info so they can discuss the video. And so also to to to become become the leaders God wants them to be. |
| Ashley | In the kind of teaser for the series that I watched you talk about or you reference a virtue based approach to ethics versus the kind of modern approach. Can you what do you mean by that? |
| Dr. Joseph McInerny | Well, we talk about virtues, virtues, a common word in the English language, obviously, But it's not. Virtue as a concept is not terribly influential. And in our modern moral culture, our modern moral culture is focused more on utilitarian approaches to ethics. You know, what are the consequences of my decisions? We might focus on rules or even duties. The 18th century philosopher Immanuel Kant focused ethics on duties. The virtue based approach, actually the roots of the virtue based approach come from the Bible, and they also come from the Catholic intellectual tradition that reaches its high, high point in the high Middle Ages. But since then, with modern moral philosophy, not only the church but really Western culture has moved away from the virtues. And what we want to do is actually leverage the virtues which are very simply, morally excellent habits to come back once the tradition of the church, but really to to get at the heart of what it means to be a morally excellent human being and how important that is to lead well, and that people are trust morally excellent people, people who are people, leaders who are people of integrity and have excellent moral character inspire the trust necessary for leaders to influence their followers in really profound ways. So that's one of the reasons that we're focusing on the virtues. Who's one? They're we're all creatures of habit. So we want to leverage those habits, which can be enormously powerful, not only to us leading flourishing lives, but enabling us to inspire the trust that will draw followers to a leader. |
| Ashley | It's so interesting and that you know, really caught my attention the idea of of a virtue based approach approach to ethics versus the modern reality, because we hear so much language and verbiage about virtues. In fact, just the phrase virtue signaling is a kind of a part of our lingo. And it's like so much of products and food and everything is is marketed with this language about virtue, and yet it's totally hollow. In fact, there's a restaurant in the area where I live called Virtue Feed and Green, and it's like, what do you mean? You know? Right, right. And so there is truly a real need to to reclaim even what virtue means to begin with. And what these these words are that we're sort of drenched in that are kind of actually empty. So do you I mean, have you found that that there's an interest for for your series? And and if so, who's who's the audience? |
| Dr. Joseph McInerny | Well, I think intrinsically there's an interest for for a virtue based approach to life just because people want to live full and flourishing lives. And and that's the promise of of the right understanding of virtues. It's so interesting that you bring up the empty aspect of it, too, because, you know, it just is it's it's like television, you know, iPhones, They're incredible tools and they can be used for good and for bad. A term like virtue can have tremendous decimating, and we can use it in a very superficial way. And I think virtue signaling and you're exactly right. That's a superficial way to use use the idea, but virtue in that sense. So the word for virtue in classical Greek language is arity. And arreté can be translated in two ways. It can be translated as virtue, or it can be translated as excellence, actually. And so we wanted to apply it in the context of ethics. Virtue is a morally excellent habit, so to speak. So we want to get at that kind of depth in this. We find, to be honest, I think it appeals to it appeals to men and women. But I think it's particularly particularly that it can appeal to to the men of the Knights of Columbus who were obviously trying to imitate and say this virtues offer the strength that is available, available to us in the gospel, that Christ is the perfect man, the perfect human being. And he was he was we can see very clearly in the New Testament, both in the Gospels and in the Epistles, that he was a person of virtue. And so for us to reach our potentials as his followers, we have to become persons of virtue as well. |
| Ashley | What are the virtues that you really delve into, into the series? |
| Dr. Joseph McInerny | Well, this series really is kind of a beginning because there are so many virtues. The church is tradition focuses on theological virtues of faith, faith, hope and charity or love. And then there's the cardinal virtues of prudence and temperance, courage and justice. And underneath those four cardinal virtues is a whole host of virtues. So the discussion on virtue can be very long because there's so many. What we have focused on in this first approach to leadership are what we think are the key virtues. First of all, if a virtue is a is an excellent habit, the first habit for every Christian person, men and women, has to be prayer, habitual prayer is the foundation of our ability to to do the good things God is asking us to do in our lives. And then from there we look at two virtues that are particularly important for leadership. The first is magnanimity is the traditional title for this and for that virtue, and that's the ability to recognize your God given strengths and talents. That's something that every leader needs to be able to do. And the parallel, or maybe the opposite pole of that is the virtue of humility. Where a person and humility is a very rich, rich, more morally excellent habit. But just to put it concisely, humility is the ability to recognize once weaknesses. And so magnanimity and humility are these two virtues that are kind of in tension with one another. But they are both crucial to excellent leadership leaders need to be both magnanimous and humble if they want to be effective. So we start we start there with those two virtues. After we talk about prayer in the series. |
| Ashley | Do you think that there's virtues that I'm trying to think of how to formulate this question, but I'm interested in sex differences. I've written a book about the differences between men and women. And yes, there are virtues that men struggle with more and or are there virtues that men are more called to? If you get the gist of my question. |
| Ryan Anderson | Yeah, that's. |
| Dr. Joseph McInerny | A great question. And to be honest, actually, it's not something that I've thought about too much because, you know, obviously I'm a man, so I approach this from from my own particular strengths and weaknesses and which are in view with my own masculinity. I, you know, I would say one one thing that that men can struggle with, particularly is the virtue of temperance. You know, it's a type of thing I used to say this to my students at the Naval Academy when I was teaching there. You know, can you get too much of a good thing? And all the guys in the room, they would just be shaking their heads saying, no way, you can't do it. And I'd be like, Well, actually, yes, yes, you can. You can have too much pizza. You can have too much beer. So so God's created us in such a wonderful, beautiful way. And this differentiation between men and women. And and I think it's hard to make general claims about the particular virtues for both of the genders, because I think there's so much of your individual personality, your own formation, that that is bound up with that. And that's why there's a transcendent aspect to the virtues. So, you know, men and women equally can be prudent. They can equally be just and and temperate and and and and brave and courageous. You know, it just is the four cardinal virtues. So but they will it'll manifest differently in men and women's lives, I think too. And that's that's that's probably a really a really rich subject to explore. It's not one that that I would want to claim any expertise on now. |
| Ashley | Well, you mentioned teaching at the Naval Academy. And I think that, you know, we really associate so much of virtue with the military and military service and learning in a in a military environment. And, you know, I was I was going to ask you about your trajectory from being in the Navy to producer of a video series. But, you know, how do you think your time in the military, you know, 30 years of service really helped give you kind of a baptism by fire in the virtues? |
| Dr. Joseph McInerny | Absolutely. You know, and I think this happens in basic training for all the services for my basic training did happen at the Naval Academy when I was a student there. They call it sleep summer, and especially for for young men and women, it's really an overwhelming experience. You know, you're you know, a lot of times your head is shaved. If you're a guy, if you're a woman, you get a very short haircut. You're kind of almost made anonymous and you're put into a platoon or a unit, and then you're challenged both physically and intellectually. And the kind of the philosophy or the background is you kind of break people down and then build them up. And for me, that was a time to be to be renewed in a lot of ways. In habituation. I did not realize it at the time at all, but that experience kind of set a foundation in which I could begin to to build good habits. And so so I think that's one of the great gifts that military service has to offer military members is that the environment is is so is structured, but it's also very powerful and it and the intensity can produce morally excellent habits in a way that that's unique, that's unique. And I think I've definitely benefited from, you know, I've got a long way to go. You can ask my wife how many, how many vices I have, which are bad habits. But but I can tell you I've come a long way too. And my military experience, I have to admit, is a big part of that. |
| Ashley | Well, it's just so wonderfully refreshing to even hear somebody kind of speaking plainly and boldly about virtue in a culture that just doesn't value even if it, you know, co-opts its language. But so the Knights of Columbus, I mean, is another the it's it's endurance despite the culture. I think is really a testament to the organization. And how long have you been a member of the Knights of Columbus and to what do you ascribe the fact that it's just still this organization, despite kind of the bottoming, bottoming out of the culture and the devaluation of kind of single sex organizations, institutions, even education? |
| Dr. Joseph McInerny | Yeah, that's a great question. It's really interesting. At the time of the founding of the Knights, there were many fraternal, hundreds of fraternal organizations in the United States. There there are there are only a handful that are left. And you're right, the Knights are there and the organization is quite large and and and it is dynamic and it's and it's fruitful. It's not a perfect organization. We we have to renew ourselves and we constantly have to to to work hard to do that. I think the foundation of it is it was founded by a priest blessed Michael Mcgivney and the foundation of it for its enduring is the Holy Spirit. There's nothing else I can I can point to. As long as the Knights are engaged in and prayer and keeping, you know, God's spirit, you know, Christ spirit at the center of what we do, I think we will persevere. And if we get away from that foundation, we will struggle just like any any other organization. So I think it's I think that's at the heart of it. It's it's also your question is great because it's this complexity there there are other aspects of the knights that help help give life to the spirit within the organization, whether it's it's our structures or the different things that we're able to do, whether it's, you know, you know, the charitable works charity is something that draws men into the organization. That's something that we're not known for. And so so that's certainly has helped keep us alive over the time. But I mean, I think I think that endurance is a gift of God's spirit. To put it simply. |
| Ashley | I also think, you know, you mentioned humility is is kind of a really key virtue. And I know you have a book about it. And I think when I think of the Knights, I think of humility. I think of all the the hidden work that's done behind the scenes. There's no you know, I volunteer with a women's pregnancy resource organization, and it's the knights who assemble the cribs and they just show up and they assemble the cribs and then they leave. And they don't they're not out there boasting about it. And or if it's, you know, like the pancake breakfast, they're just kind of doing this quiet, humble service. And it's just such a beautiful thing. Well, we're almost out of time, but tell us, where can people who are interested go to see these video series and where can they find out, you know, about your work and your books and and all of this. |
| Dr. Joseph McInerny | So the videos can be found on the nights website, which is CO FC, not KFC, Kentucky Fried Chicken Co FC dot org slash virtues and and the the primer for the video is there you can just jump in like like you have right now we're offering the videos as a as a function of membership so to to watch the video series for men we need we need them to sign up and we would love for people to sign up too, so they can have access to the videos. And and the videos really are based on some research I did a number of years ago. And that's and that's contained in a in a monograph that I published with the Knights on the Knights Catholic Information Service that that the title of that monograph is Passion Paradox The Leadership Genius of Jesus Christ. And so so if if you're more interested in reading a version of this that that that monograph is a little it's about 60 pages long so it's broader than the than the videos themselves. But that's something to that that would give give a little more depth to what the videos offer also. |
| Ashley | Well, thank you so much. We've been talking with Dr. Joseph McInerney, who is with the Knights of Columbus and the producer of the Leadership Virtue Series, a video series about the virtues. So thank you so much for joining us today. |
| Dr. Joseph McInerny | Thank you, Ashley. It's been it's been a treat to be with you. |
| Ashley | Thank you. And now Father Roger Landry offers us a thought provoking homily to prepare us for this Sunday's gospel. |
| Fr. Landry | This is Father Roger Landry. It's a privilege for me to be with you as we enter into the consequential conversation. There is more Jesus wants to have with each of us. This Sunday, during the month of November, the church always ponders what are called the four last things Death judgment, Heaven and hell. This Sunday speaks to us in apocalyptic language about the end of the world when he says that the sun will be dark in the moon will not give light. The stars will fall from the sky and the heavens will be shaken. He declares that then everyone will see him coming with great power and glory as he sends out the angel to gather the elect from all the corners of the earth. He tells us that when we see these things happening, we should know that he is near. He adds that we should similarly always be ready for no one knows the time it will take place except God. The Father in graphic language, Jesus describing the truth. We proclaim every Sunday in a profession of faith. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead. But many of us are afraid of this reality. If angels were to come in vast numbers right now to announce that the end of the world we're coming today, most people, rather than rejoicing, would be screaming in fear, most wouldn't be ready. That is not, however, the reaction the Lord wants from us, for it shows a lack of faith in love when the early Christians reflected on the reality of Jesus Second Coming, they used to cry out Mironov to come Lord Jesus. They looked forward to this event with great expectation because it would lead to their full unity in love with the Lord forever. Our attitude is supposed to be similar. We pray in every mass after the our father. By the help of your mercy. We may we always be free from sin as we await the blessed hope in the coming of our Savior Jesus Christ, the attitude we're called to have versus Jesus Second Coming is a holy hope. I remember once when I was preaching retreat in Los Angeles, an elderly woman came to me asking, Father, is it sinful for me to look forward to my death so that I can, God willing, be with Jesus forever in heaven? He replied tenderly, but emphatically, No, it's not a sin. Then she said to me, Then why does anyone else seem to have this longing? It was a sound observation. Few seem to have this desire. One reason, I think, is because so many of us are focused on the things that this world obsessed, for example, about the imminent political changes taking place in Washington, various dramas in our workplaces or families, where the latest happenings in sports or entertainment are mind, heart, soul and strength are not focused on God in the things of God, but Jesus elsewhere in a parable would call worldly cares and anxieties the lure of riches in the craving for other things, in other reason I think may have to do with the first part of the prayer just cited from the mass and the link between our being free from sin and our ability to wait and blessed hope for the coming of the Lord like illustrate this point with the story from my childhood when I was a kid. Most days I would wait with eager expectation for the return of my dad from work. About 415 in the afternoon at about 4:00, our black laboratory retriever would start pacing around the house with its tail wagging. Each of the four kids would take regular glances at the clock. Eventually, we would hear the shutting of the heavy steel door of my father's van and we would all hustle toward the back door through which he would come, all wanting to be the first to jump into a strong arms and welcome him home with a hug and a kiss. We loved our dad and couldn't wait for him to return so that we could be with him. This is what happened. As I said earlier on most days. On other days, you would actually dread his return. Precisely on those occasions when I had done something that I knew he wouldn't appreciate and about which my mother had promised to inform him on his arrival on those afternoons when 4 p.m. came around and our dog began his excited daily ritual, I was looking for a place to hide underneath the clothes in the closet in my bedroom. I think this experience is a parable for our in front of the return of the Lord. If we really love the Lord, we're impatient for His return so that we can be with him. We're like family members in airports waiting at first sight of loved ones, returning from deployments or travel overseas, ready to scamper across arrival terminals to embrace them. Similarly, if we're ready to greet Jesus, it's a time of blessed hope and expectation for those of us who have done something wrong. However, who haven't been free from sin, we have been doing what we ought to have been doing with the gift of our life, then it's something to which we do not look forward, something even that we can dread. So how do those of us who fear the coming Lord either at the end of time or at the end of our life, whichever comes first in either may come before this homily is finished? How do we become those who can await his coming full of blessed hope? The great teacher told us The secret to this transition is by living each day as if it were our last, by being ready and every time to meet the Lord, by getting everything in order so that not only we will not be caught off guard when he comes, but rather on fire for a loving reunion. Thomas The camp is a spiritual classic. The imitation of Christ. He counseled all believers on how to do this. He wrote very quickly, There will be an end of you here. Take heed, therefore, how it will be for you in another world. Well, the dullness and hardness of man's heart, which thinks only the present and looks not forward to the future you want, and every sort of water yourself as if you were to die this very day. Happy is the man who has the hour of his death, always before his eyes and daily prepares himself to die. When it's morning reflected. You may not see the evening and it even time dare not to boast yourself of tomorrow Always be prepared so and so live The death may never find you unprepared. Many die suddenly and unexpectedly Jesus says for at an hour You do not think the son of man will come strive then now to live in such a way that at the hour of your death you may rejoice rather than fear. Learn now to die to the world so that you begin to live with Christ. Learn now to spurn all earthly things. And then you may be freely able to go on to Christ. Think of nothing but your salvation care only for the things of God. Make friends for yourself by venerating the saints of God and walking in their footsteps so that when you die, you may be received into eternal dwellings. Keep yourself a stranger and a pilgrim upon earth to the things of the world belong, not keep your heart free and lifted toward God. For here we have no lasting city to Him. Direct your prayers daily with cries and tears that your spirit may be found worthy to pass happily after death to its. |
| Ryan Anderson | Lord. |
| Fr. Landry | Campus. His spiritual wisdom, which is for many saints over the last six centuries, is based on the insight that it is only when we realize that today may be our last, that we may not have the opportunity to put off the truly important things until tomorrow, that we begin to think clearly and get our priorities straight. We act differently toward people when we realize that our next interaction with them might be our last, we begin to look at time differently and no longer wish to waste it on diversions when attempted in the same way toward the harsh word, the impure thought or the vengeful action, knowing that that might be the last thing we ever do, we begin to have a far deeper appreciation for prayer in the sacraments in the church. We cease to sleepwalk spiritually and become fully alert to the meaning of every moment forward. Indeed, back in 2011, two days before he would retire as the Archbishop of Philadelphia, Colonel Justin Rigali wrote to the priest of his archdiocese in extraordinarily beautiful meditation on Christian preparation for death, He wrote provocatively, Preparing for death is the greatest opportunity in our life, rather than dreading. Death is the inexorable occasion in which our life would be taken from us. We can all learn from Jesus, he said, how to make our death an act of Supreme Self-Giving love. He advised that we focus on two gospel passages. The first is Jesus words. No one takes my life from me. I freely lay it down just as Jesus made his death an act of self-giving love so we can do the same. The Cardinal continued, seen in this perspective, death is the moment to give all surrender, all with Jesus in a union, with the sacrifice, when anticipated by an act of loving acceptance. Death is an opportunity to say yes to the Father, just as Jesus did, to say yes with all our heart. That leads us to the second passage. Jesus Last words from the cross when he cried out Father into your hands. I commend my spirit. Her Self-Giving love is a self-interest to the father, something the Cardinal urges us to do every day before we go to bed, as the church does in night prayer, He comments. When the hour of death comes, we not may not be conscious. It may come very suddenly by reason of an accident or a heart attack. There are 1,000,001 possibilities left to our imagination. But this does not matter. The point is the surrender will have been made thousands of times. The father will understand that each of us had the power which we exercised the power with the Son Jesus to lay down our life freely, lovingly and definitively. Then there will be no obstacle of the consummation of our love life and holiness will be ours forever. In the community of the most blessed Trinity since preparing for death is the greatest opportunity in our life, Cardinal Rigali concludes now is the time to give all. Let's take full advantage in this month of November and the consequential conversation with Jesus in the Gospel. The Sun to form in ourselves this habit of daily self offering. Each day. Let us pronounce the definitive yes to God that we want to see on the last day of our life, the hour of our death, and for all eternity. This is the means by which when the sun and moon darken and the stars seem to fall. When Christ comes in glory to judge living in the dead rather than be afraid, we will run out to meet him free from sin as the fulfillment of blessed hope, ready to jump into his gloriously scarred hands, to be embraced by love forever. That's the way we make practical the church's beautiful bridal call Marana to come. Lord Jesus. God bless you. |
| Ashley | Thank you, Father Roger Landry. Make sure to catch all of his great work at Catholic preached income, or you can follow his writings at the National Catholic Register. Go to NC register dot com and until next time, we wish you all the very best and you go with our prayers. |