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Episode Description
With the cause for canonization officially open for Sister Clare Crockett, we talk with the postulator for the cause, Sister Kristen Gardner, all about the life of this soon-to-be saint. From her amazing conversion back to Christ, her radiant joy and tragic death, and the many possible miracles with millions praying for her intercession, Sister Gardner shares intimate never-before-heard details about this beloved sister that she knew personally.
Marking Trisomy Awareness Month, we also talk with Beverly Jacobson about her darling daughter Verity who was born with Trisomy-18, and why all life should be protected, especially the most vulnerable. Beverly is the founder of Mama Bear Care, which advocates for parents who receive difficult chromosomal diagnoses for their unborn babies during their pregnancies.
We also hear from our TCA chaplain, Msgr. Roger Landry, on the witness of St. Joseph as we mark his feast day.
Bios
Sister Kristen Gardner is a religious sister, author, documentary producer, and postulate for the cause for beatification for Sister Clare Crockett. Originally from Columbus, Ohio, Sister Kristen was baptized a Presbyterian but entered the Catholic Church at age 7. A year later she felt called to religious life, attending the same Servant Sisters of the Home of the Mother as Sister Clare, becoming close friends through the years. Following Sister Clare’s death in 2016 at age 33, Sister Kristen decided to respond to the many requests to learn more about her friend and classmate. She produced a documentary in 2018, and in 2019 authored the biography, St. Clare Crockett: Alone With Christ Alone. Sister Kristen notes that even after Sister Clare’s death, she continues to touch people’s lives. She says people write to her from all over the world sharing how Sister Clare’s testimony is helping them turn to the Lord or leave mediocrity behind. Says Sister Kristen, “It seems clear that her mission did not finish here on earth.”
Beverly Jacobson is an author, speaker, homeschool mother, and the Founder of Mama Bear Care – formerly known as Verity’s Village – a nonprofit ministry that serves families who receive a life-limiting prenatal diagnosis for their babies. She has authored numerous books, including Our Baby Will be Different, From Diagnosis to Delivery: What to Expect When the Unexpected Happens During Your Pregnancy, and Powered by Prayer: A 30-Day Journey to Praying Scripture for Yourself, Your Family, & Your Homeschool. Beverly is a military wife, coaches homeschooling techniques, and advocates for parents whose infants are diagnosed with a Trisomy-18 chromosomal condition. The mother of 9 enjoys coffee, public speaking, and walking the trails near her Colorado home.
Monsignor Roger Landry is a priest of the Diocese of Fall River, Massachusetts. He writes for numerous publications, speaks on radio and TV, and is the author of the book, Plan of Life: Habits to Help You Grow Closer to God. A graduate of Harvard and the Pontifical North American College in Rome, he served as Attaché to the Holy See’s Permanent Observer Mission to the UN in New York. Father Landry traversed the full 1500-mile Eucharist Pilgrimage in 2024 and joined the historic Eucharistic Congress in Indianapolis, an event which coincided with his 25th year in the priesthood. He was recently appointed the new National Director of the Pontifical Mission Societies in the USA.
The following transcript is machine generated.
Episode 309 Transcript
| Ashley | Hello friends, and welcome to Conversations with Consequences. We are the radio show and podcast of the Catholic Association where we aim to change the culture one conversation at a time. You can listen to conversations with consequence US on the EWTN Global Catholic Radio Network Saturday mornings at 7 a.m. Eastern or catch the encore at 5 p.m.. We are also on Sirius XM Channel 130. Of course, our radio show is also a podcast. Go to the Catholic Association dot org or directly to wherever you listen to your podcast. |
| Mary | I'm your host, Mary Fiorito. |
| Betsy | And I'm Betsy Fentress. |
| Mary | And we are so thrilled to have with us today Sister Christine Gardner. She is the postulator for the beatification cause and the canonization cause of Sister Clare Crockett. You've probably heard at some point of the the hit show Derry Girls, while Sister Claire Crockett was a real life Derry girl who became a sister of the home of the mother, one of a religious order. And now her cause for canonization is open and proceeding. And Sister Kristin, thank you so much for being with us today. |
| Sister Kristen Gardner | You're welcome. Thank you for the invitation. |
| Mary | So, Sister, just to start, if you could tell us a little bit about your congregation, because it's I know you have a presence here in the United States, but I think many Catholics probably wouldn't be as familiar with it as, say, the Dominicans or the Franciscans or what have you. |
| Sister Kristen Gardner | I'm a servant sister of the home of the mother. We were founded in 1984 by a Spanish diocesan priest, Father Rafael Alonso, and we have three missions in the church which are that. The first is the defense of the Eucharist. The second is the defense of the honor of our lady, especially in the privilege of her virginity. The third is the conquest for young people for Christ in the home of the mother. Receive the pontifical approval in 2010. And we're happy to be members of the church serving the church for the glory of God. |
| Mary | So, sister, where does the phrase of the home of the mother come from that title? Is it referring to Mary's home in Loreto? |
| Sister Kristen Gardner | It's referring to our lady's home. Well, it's first in Nazareth. Obviously, the part of that home is now in Loreto as well. But it means that we want to live in our lady's home and be part of her family. So wherever we are, we feel like that's her home. It's really her home is her heart. Now we live in her home. She's the mother of us as a family. We have the sisters, the brothers, families, young people. So we're just a big family. And she's our mother and she takes care of us and guides us and leads us to lead everyone to her son and sister. |
| Mary | When did you become a part of the community? |
| Sister Kristen Gardner | I entered in the year 2002. |
| Mary | Okay. And so it sounds like it's a very Mary and spirituality, which is which is very beautiful. So. Well, let's begin with Sister Clare Crockett. She, of course, you know, was a very successful actress and TV presenter on, I believe, the RTL and the BBC. Tell us about Sister Clare, how she came to meet you all and how her cause is going so far. |
| Sister Kristen Gardner | So Sister Clare. Clare Crockett. She was a young girl from Northern Ireland. Her dream was to become a famous actress in Hollywood. And when she was 17, Charity then a presenter for several programs and channel four. She'd been offered a job at Nickelodeon as well, and she was invited to go on a free trip to Spain. And she imagined parties and beaches. I mean, she was a normal teenager, if you can imagine, you know, without practicing their faith. You can imagine what her life was like, you know. And so she was invited to go to Spain and she was like, yeah, for sure. But then she discovered that it was really a pilgrimage and a retreat. So she tried to back out, but it was too late, you know, the name was on the ticket. And she's like, Well, I can't say no. And she was always a person. She she was up for anything, you know? So it would be an adventure, even if it's just adventure. So she she signed up and she and she arrived here in Spain. And I was also there when she arrived. I was here with my family. I was 14 at the time. She was 17, so she was three years older than me, which at that age you can tell the difference more right then later on. But but I do remember her at that retreat. We ended up at a monastery in Cuenca, Spain. She's about 2 hours away from Madrid, and she was always outside smoking, trying to get some sun. She didn't take part much in the activities of the retreat. It was during Holy Week, the year 2000. But on Good Friday, she was told, you know, you really should go into the church on Good Friday. Like you can't just stand outside, you know. Good Friday, We're remembering the day our Lord died for her. You should really go in. So she entered in in the moment when everyone venerates the cross. She got up and she got in the line like everyone else, and she kissed the cross in there. Our Lord gave her the grace to understand how much she loved her and how all of her sins and her lack of love for him were offending him and how that he was on the cross for her to the savior. And that changed her life. Now she she she had a very radical personality. So her immediate reaction was like, okay, he's on the cross for loving me. I have to give my life to him. I have to give my life him. And so she saw the sisters at the retreat. She was like, Well, I have to be one of them. So that's how it all started. It wasn't a meeting. It's not like the next day she hated it, became a sister. It took a year of, you know, going back and forth like, Is this really what God wants, what I want? You know. |
| Mary | And her parents were opposed to it from what I understand. |
| Sister Kristen Gardner | Yes. I think you also have to put yourself in her parents feet as well. I mean, your daughter wants to be a famous actress. She loves partying. All of a sudden, she comes back from a retreat in Spain and says she she's going to be a nun. Like what? Yeah. It was such a huge change that they couldn't understand it. They didn't have a strong faith as well. So I think you really you really have to have faith to understand how God can give such a sudden grace to that person that changes the desires of their heart. Yeah. And so they didn't understand, you know, what was going on. They thought she was joking around and that she was she had really met some guy in Spain and that she was going to live with him and just saying she was going to be a nun. You know, she was always joking. So they never it was hard for them to know if it was real or not. So I think until they were able to come to Spain themselves, meet the sisters and they're like, wow, this is this is real. So it took some time to process it. And but yes, it was difficult for her. She had to her parents didn't want to go to Spain and she said, no, but I have to follow follow God. I have to follow his will. And and and she was 18. And she she as soon as she finished high school, secondary school, as they say there in Ireland, she she flew over to Spain and to become a sister. |
| Betsy | So the documentary is called All or Nothing. Were you involved in the making of that documentary, Sister? |
| Sister Kristen Gardner | Yes, I guess you could call me the producer of the documentary. Okay. I was the one who. Yeah, the idea behind it, I, I and so the idea was really Father Rafael Alonso, our founder. He he saw how many people became interested in Sister Claire after her death. She died in 2016 in an earthquake in Ecuador. And after that, it was just an avalanche, an avalanche of emails, phone calls, letters, even asking, you know, for more information about Sister Claire wanting to get her know, getting to know her more. So we so we decided to do this documentaries. We also discovered that we had lots of footage, you know, and it's it's a blessing because in the year 2000, there was a Catholic television station in Italy that closed down and they offered us all the cameras, cameras and machines and and and our founding father, Rafael. So he's like, well, God wants us to evangelize through the media. So he he he accepted all that. And then we started learning how to use cameras. And this was back in the year 2000. So the big these big, huge cameras that weren't very easy to use. So you always had a sister. I remember when I arrived, there was always some sister practicing with the camera where do you practice? What, with the other sisters? No. And so so we have lots of tapes of just random footage, you know, around the house. They're doing things that people, when they see the documentary, like how do you have so much video of Sister Claire? It's like, well, we don't just have video of sister of all the sisters. |
| Betsy | I had the same question and I thought, how in the world did they kind of pressure only know that there were going to want to do a movie about this extraordinary woman? |
| Sister Kristen Gardner | No, we didn't. It just we have lots of footage of lots of different things. I mean, hundreds of tapes. So that summer after the earthquake, I went through it all and seen how much material we had. You know, sometimes in one tape I found like 10 seconds of Sister Claire and the other hour with somebody else, you know, other things. But but I mean, you added it all together. It was a lot of a lot of material. So we saw it as a sign from God. And we studied. We did it all ourselves. You know, I asked the sisters in the US is like, can you record interviews there in Jacksonville with all the teachers and students that knew Sister Claire in Ecuador? The same thing, like all the sisters in the different communities, you know, did their part to contribute to the documentary. And then they sent it all to me and I put it together basically. |
| Mary | Well, I think one of the things that Americans at least find so interesting about her is that she had sort of, you know, hit that hit the pinnacle of what a lot of young girls dream for. She had a she had a actual television offer, loads of money coming along with that. I remember at some point in the documentary, she talks about being in a very, very high end hotel, and they'd gone to dinner and she came back to her room and cried because she felt so empty. None of it, none of it filled her up. But she was also, of course, very beautiful, very striking, young woman. And I think that's just so odd to Americans these days because, you know, we have fewer women entering religious life and certainly very few, you know, TV stars. And in religious life, I think there was the one woman who was in the movie with Elvis Presley, whose name is escaping me now, Betsy, do you remember? |
| Betsy | she's a nun up in. |
| Mary | Connecticut came a she became about. |
| Betsy | Dolores Hart. |
| Mary | Dolores Hart. Right. So I don't think since Dolores Hart we've had anything like this. So she's you know, it's kind of interesting. But the children who, I guess are young adults now that she taught in Florida, they seemed to just have been besotted with her like she was their favorite teacher. Can you tell us a little bit about their experience? Just as you know, when she entered and she was teaching in this school, how did that continued to shape her vocation? |
| Sister Kristen Gardner | I think she she had such a gift, you know, the gift that she had for acting and the gift she had for people. She was a very good people person. She immediately connected with all different types of people. It wasn't just that with children, but she was also great with elderly people. I mean, she could she had a. |
| Mary | Gift for everybody. Loved her. |
| Sister Kristen Gardner | Everybody loved her. And I think it's those gifts that God had given her. Well, now, instead of putting them at her own service to become famous and and and be a star, she put them at the service of God. So when she was teaching little kids, I mean, you could have preschoolers, you know, just totally, you know, looking at her with their mouths open, not getting distracted at any little thing just because she had such a gift to catch their attention. She tell them a story and that in and they loved it. So she put those gifts at the service of God and and used it to bring the kids to her, to the kids, to God. And I think it's also amazing how you ask these kids who are now well, now, but one of them just got married recently and has her baby girl that she named Claire after Sister Claire. But you ask them and they still remember concrete things that Sister Claire would tell them. Like one remembers how she explained the scapular to them. Another remembers how she explained the difference between venial mortal sin and importance to go to confession. I mean, they remember very concrete things. That's amazing that a six year old can remember 15 years later these such specific things. But I think it's just that she had such a gift and and God used her and the kids remembered it. You know, it really stayed in their hearts and their memories. |
| Betsy | Joy, really just emanates from the screen. I, I just found myself looking in front of the screen smiling most of the time until I cried when she died. But I want to go back a little bit to what Mary said about her family because I found the interviews with the family so genuine and interesting in that there was ambivalence, like you said, because she was on her way to becoming the things she always wanted to do, but her family was moved. Her two sisters say that they are now Maskers And is there any kind of movement in Ireland that we see in vocations because of her life and her example? |
| Sister Kristen Gardner | I don't have specific numbers of how many vocations in Ireland. I do think that she has a special mission with Ireland. We have a community of sisters now about 45 minutes away from her, her grave in Derry, because her family asked for her to be buried in Derry. And and we accepted that petition because it really seemed I don't know if we felt like she had a special mission to evangelize Ireland after her, after her death. So she's now they're burying the sisters who who lived close. So it's amazing every whenever they go to the tomb, there's always someone at the tomb. Always, always, if not several people. And and I think she brings a lot of hope, especially to the young people in Derry. It's a city that's suffered a lot through the time of troubles. You know, Sister Clare's parents would have been the ones who suffered most. But even in her very young years, she would have lived some of the violence between, you know, the Protestant and the Catholics there in. And so to see how someone was able to come out of all of that and have such joy and have such fulfillment in their life, that God's the one who gives that. Because I think there's there's a high rate of suicides among young people there, lots of alcohol, lots of drugs. And to see how someone might able to come out of that and find true happiness, it's a sign of hope that it is possible. You know, God can really give you true happiness, but he's the only one who can do it. I think that's that's the message she has for the people there. Over 100 people from Derry came for the opening of the cause here in Spain. The streets were full of Irish people all over the place. So plenty of pilgrimage for next year. I think it's beautiful the mission she has in Ireland. But I think specific numbers, I don't have specific numbers about how many vocations or how many, but she is doing her work there. |
| Mary | You Well, definitely there's what the church calls the vox populi, the voice of the people. We saw this after John Paul's Saint John Paul, the second staff people crying Santo Subito make him a saint now. And, you know, that's one of the things that the church examiner says was there after the death, a real surge of prayer for this persons intercession of, you know, indications that she might already be interceding. You know, she was because I think it's actually you who say in the documentary she was very ready to die and you know would have been in a in a complete if she had just gone to mass in a complete state of grace when the Lord, you know, took her. And the five companions very quickly. And, you know, one of the things that's interesting about Derry, that's Derry is known for are its murals. And so large murals of important people and cultural figures and things like that. And there's a beautiful large mural of Sister Clare. Now two are there are two now. There's one right near her burial site. And then where's the other one sister? |
| Sister Kristen Gardner | The ones that the ones up in the north part of the city. But the second one, she's in a white habit. In the other one she's in the blue having. |
| Mary | Okay, I've seen the blue, I haven't seen the white habit one. I've seen the blue white. I'll have to go look. But, you know, it's just even if you're watching this, the show Derry Girls and then PBS had a terrific documentary last year called Once Upon a Time in Northern Ireland. When you look back on everything that happened and it's it's just surreal to look back on. You know, my grandmother was from the north, from Antrim, and I remember going to Belfast for the first time and, you know, it was nothing to see a British soldier with a machine gun standing on the street corner like by the grocery store. That was just very, very typical. And the violence and the violence in the name of religion, as you said, you know, she she her parents would have been in the generation that was impacted the most directly, but the children were not immune to it, which is what I think the Derry Girls series showed. You know, what people had to live with on a daily basis. And I do I remember her sister Claire, saying my parents were Catholic, but not for religious reasons, but for political reasons. |
| Betsy | I know. Does that too. |
| Mary | Yeah. And so it was. But then, you know, the Lord just transforming all of them and and now her sister's going back to Mass. And I understand her father passed away recently. |
| Sister Kristen Gardner | So both of her parents have passed away after the earthquake, but they both died with the sacraments. And so it's a it's a blessing. |
| Mary | So why was her cause opened in Spain then? Is that because that's where your community is located? |
| Sister Kristen Gardner | Yeah, our headquarters is in in an accolade in that is Spain, the headquarters of the Servant Sisters. So it really made we were discerning and praying about it and it was very difficult for the bishop in Ecuador because to start the cause, because he doesn't have priests who are prepared with canon law, you know, to do to do it. |
| Mary | It's a very specific process. Yes. |
| Sister Kristen Gardner | Yeah. So we talked to the bishop here. And since it's our headquarters and it's true that most there are a lot of witnesses in Ecuador, but there's also witnesses in the U.S., There's witnesses in Ireland. There's witnesses who live now in Spain. And she said she moved she was in those four countries. Really? It really is in different which country you do the cause. And so we absolutely see her mission. |
| Mary | And yeah, pardon me. I'm sorry for interrupting you, sister. I was going to ask, though, because I know that she died along with five other girls. Is that correct? And so are so. And I know I've seen some references to Sister Claire and her companions. Will all their causes be introduced together, or is this specifically for Sister Claire? |
| Sister Kristen Gardner | This is just specifically for Sister Claire. Because since I mean, if they had been martyrs, you could introduce them all together, right? They're not martyrs. They died in an earthquake, Right? And they died together. But each one would have to be studied individually. At the moment, we're praying and asking for light from God also to see what he wants. Perhaps in the future we might consider opening the doors for Valeria was a young girl, 15, who died with Sister Claire, her stories. She has an amazing story of forgiveness, which is a heroic virtue in her. She she she was present when her her father killed her mother when she was three years old. And so it was it's a story of great sadness, but at the same time, great a great testimony of forgiveness of how how when she came to the school that the sisters directed their close close to her home when she was 11, she learned that it is possible to forgive and that God loved her father and that one that God desired the salvation of her father and that. So she opened her heart. And it's like I also want him to be in heaven with me and and to learn how to forgive him. And she irradiate. You see the pictures of her in her last years. She radiates a joy. And you can get the pictures of when she was younger that the sadness she had in her eyes. So beautiful story. Yeah, it's a beautiful story. |
| Betsy | So can you tell us about any intercessory prayers that they are attributing to Sister Claire? I think there's one on infertility. We'd love to hear about those. |
| Sister Kristen Gardner | Now, there's many cases of of people who aren't able to have babies and they ask for stickers, intercession. I mean, there's lots of babies and pictures. They constantly arrive. A baby's name, Claire after Sister Claire. Thanks to your intercession and some of the biggest miracles recently we have someone with I can't remember the name but some type of illness in the eye, a disease in the eye, an eye disease that was degenerative and the personality lost a great deal of eyesight and such a place intercession. They've totally recovered the eyesight, which the doctors have said they don't know how this is, but that that that disease. |
| Mary | Was it retinitis pigmentosa? Is that it, though? |
| Sister Kristen Gardner | That doesn't sound like it. I'm sorry, I should have. |
| Mary | No, I know somebody who has a very random Irish, a priest from the north of Ireland who has that particular eye disease, because I was going to say I'll I'll get Sister Claire on it right away. For him. |
| Sister Kristen Gardner | That was about a recent one. There's also a woman who, a three year old child the other day, a few weeks ago in Barcelona, he fell off a he fell from a height of three meters. So that would be about three yards, four yards from a and he he broke his he broke his head open. This the school was fractured, but coming out of the years anyways, they took him to the hospital and the parents began to pray to such a clear they've been accurate. The opening ceremony for the cause of beatification and in three days later, the little boy was running around a plane as if nothing had ever happened. The fracture had disappeared. So we're still waiting for that. So all these these things are tested. We're still waiting for the medical reports that you might be I mean, if a fracture disappears from one day to another on the x rays. Well, that's that's pretty clear. |
| Mary | But the. |
| Sister Kristen Gardner | Doctors have seen. |
| Mary | The. |
| Sister Kristen Gardner | Doctors the doctors. |
| Mary | Write to to get their sworn testimony for that sort of thing to. And since you're Christian, let's go back to the day that Sister Clare and the five girls were killed in the Ecuadorian earthquake. Can you take us back to that moment? What happened? What happened after her remains were found? I know that's a difficult part of the day, but it seems like she died even in the same heroic way that she lived. |
| Sister Kristen Gardner | So the a week before the earthquake, there was a flood in an area that into the school was flooded. It was the water was about waist high. So the whole first floor of the building was totally full, a bag full of water in the mud that came with it. Kind of similar to what happened in Valencia recently last, you know, here in Spain a few months ago. So that that whole week as the water started subsiding, they were cleaning and getting rid of the mud. And I think this flood also caused the foundations of the building to be weakened a bit because it was wet for a whole week. And so it was a it was a week of heroic virtue, which you followed. And they were constantly, you know, singing, laughing as they worked nonstop, you know, to try to the school. The school year was going to begin a week after this flood occurred. So it was like, my gosh, we have to you know, they had just painted the classrooms now like it's all full of mud, like let's, you know, try to see what we can save, clean it. So they spent that week cleaning. And then when they were almost finished, it was Saturday morning, they did the last few things in the afternoon. They went to mass. It was one of the first days they had been able to go to mass after after the flood because they weren't able to leave the building. And there's no there's no priest living close by. They were able to receive communion, but they weren't able to go to mass. So Saturday was one of the first days they were able to go to Mass and then went to Mass at 5 p.m.. They came home and Sister Clare went with a group of girls to practice the guitar. She was teaching them how to play the guitar and as a way also to get kind of discharge. You know, they've been living this flood, this difficult situation. So, you know, to get together and sing and play the guitar was a way to elevate their spirits. And it and at seven they were going to sing. They were going to pray the rosary together. So the earthquake occurred at 658. So as 2 minutes right before they were going to start praying the rosary, you know, at first they have two words in Spanish for for the quakes. One is a temblor, which would be like a temblor, like a small little shake. And then there's an earthquake, which is something that's above a 6.0, I believe. So at first they thought it was just something small, but then it kept going and kept going. |
| Mary | So that's why they didn't leave the building when they. |
| Sister Kristen Gardner | Found So that's why they started to run towards the stairs, which really when an earthquake occurs, the stairs are the worst place you can go. But obviously you don't know how much time you have. It could be worse to stay inside. So all of the ones who died were on the staircase. The sisters who were further up and who didn't make it to the staircase are the ones who survived The sisters and girls, also, because they were one of the sisters, went running to the tabernacle to save Jesus. You know, the sister who was further inside didn't make it all the way to the stairs, you know, different reasons. So once a building collapsed, there was two lay members of the home of the mother, two men from the town who had, after mass had started chatting outside the church. And the church is right across the street from the school building in the sisters house. So so they were out there talking and the earthquake started and and they turned and they saw how the building just collapsed for it was a four storey building and it just collapsed. And so they immediately went to try to see if there was somebody alive. You know, they started shouting and the sisters were alive inside, sort of responding. And and so they they tried to find a way to get them, they them to start knocking on the door and the cement. And one of the sisters just had like a hands, palms, distance from her face, that huge block of cement. So they started searching for them. But Sister Claire, in the in the girls who passed away with her were they were on the second floor of the building. So they're further down. So it took them a lot longer to, you know, the first issue to a rescue, told them where they were, you know, where the other girls were, where the other sisters were. But since they were so far down, there's more plaques of cement on top of them. It took them up. It took them around a day until they were able to find their bodies. So that was very painful, obviously, for the community, for such a close family now, because one thing is they tell you she's dead. Another thing is, well, we don't know when they continued. But I think for me at least, that that whole day of prayer and looking for waiting for the response to know if she was alive or dead was a day experience of I remember feeling that our Lord said to me, But you can't be sad. You believe in eternal life. And I was like, Yes, I do. But you know, she's my sister and sister. |
| Betsy | That's a that's a great place for us to stop and just reflect on the life of Sister Claire Crockett. Thank you so much for being here. People should look at your book, Sister Claire Crockett. Alone with Christ. Alone or go to Sister Claire Dotcom. Thank you so much for being with us. |
| Sister Kristen Gardner | You're welcome. Thank you. |
| Mary | Sister, thanks so much. |
| Ashley | Welcome back to Conversations with Consequences on EWTN Radio. I'm your host, this Ashley McGuire. |
| Mary | And I'm Mary Fiorito. |
| Ashley | And this month has been called Down's Syndrome Awareness Month. |
| Betsy | But it's really much more than that. |
| Ashley | Marches about educating and bringing awareness to all the different try songs each of the 23 chromosomes can have a triplicate, so the third month represents the third copy of a chromosome, and the day of the month represents the number of a chromosome that is affected. Trisomy nine, for example, is highlighted on March 9th and Trisomy 13 on March 13th and Trisomy 21, which is what gives a child Down's syndrome on March 21st. And we are happy to have Beverly Jacobson with us of Mama Bear Care. She has been raising awareness about Trisomy 13. Welcome to the show, Beverly. |
| Beverly Jacobson | Thank you. Our daughter actually has Trisomy 18, but I'm so happy to speak out on behalf of all those who have a trisomy condition. As you were mentioning, March is the third month, and so Trisomy Awareness Month is it's where we're at. And it's just a delight and an honor to be able to share more about my daughter and then some of the community that we serve as well. |
| Ashley | Well, thank you. And so many of the pro-life movement recently watch you either in-person or on a live stream as you spoke at the March for Life this year. So please tell us about your ninth child, Verity, and what led you to start Mama Bear Care? |
| Beverly Jacobson | Yeah, it is. Well, it's just she's such a blessing. But I will say what a journey we've been on. We we thought we'd have two, maybe three kids. And so here we are with the big family that the Lord blessed us with severity. I was about halfway through my pregnancy with her when we got the news that she had a condition called Trisomy 18 or Edwards Syndrome. It's also known and I had, of course, heard of Down's syndrome, but I had never heard of this condition. And nobody I knew had gone through something like this, receiving dire news, you know, from the doctor and then being told that probably the baby would pass away in utero, or if she did survived her birth, it would it would be a very brief and very difficult life. So that really just sent us kind of spiraling. I mean, it's just really hard to be told that about a child, that you feel kicking inside of you. It just felt like such a paradox. I could definitely feel she was alive and just as active, if not more so, than my other babies. And yet to expect that our time with her would be so brief and so sad and tragic. It just really put a pall over the rest of the pregnancy. And I spent, you know, weeks planning a burial and then actually got connected to some some families who had children with the same condition, not just infants, but toddlers, children, teenagers, even some adults who had this condition. I had no idea from the initial, you know, conversations and initial research that we did, we really didn't think that this was even possible. So then that shifted my my whole perspective of what exactly is this going to look like if Verity lives? And we gave her the name Verity, which means truth, because we felt called to speak the truth about the value of all human life, regardless of chromosomes, regardless of genetic anomalies or what have you. She is made in God's image and she is valuable. And we wanted to fight for her life, whatever that. |
| Mary | Would look like. You know, there's a comedian who's quite popular now, Shane Gillis, who has an uncle who has Down syndrome, and he he speaks of his uncle and some of his comedy routines sometimes where he talks about, you know, if he mentions, you know, my uncle has Down syndrome and people say, how is he doing? And he said, I would say he's doing better than everybody else is doing. Right. The happiest human being in the world. You know, he loves everyone and every everyone loves him. Nothing to feel sorry for for him, Right. You know that it does make you think, you know, it's that like the initial reaction of people, right? Like, like it's it's a terrible thing. He said. It's not a terrible thing. It's the happiest man alive. Are you kidding? Right? It's very funny. Stories about his uncle sneaking grilled cheese sandwiches into people's purses and things like that. He sounds like quite the character. Yeah, but, you know, I wonder if you could share with us as a mom who has had that experience of being given an adverse prenatal diagnosis, What what would have helped you have in that moment? That was absent from the delivering of that diagnosis? |
| Beverly Jacobson | Yeah, I think it's the framing, the way that we speak about it, as you just alluded to, you know, usually the news is accompanied with I'm so sorry, you know, this this is this is what's happening. And for us, the doctor who delivered the the news, you know, confirmed through the diagnostic ultrasound, she did not talk about my baby. She talked about the fetus. And it and we had just found out Verity was a girl. And so for us, this is usually a very joyous time where we we find out the sex of the baby and we can decide on a name because we like to pray for our babies. And so for us, it just it felt like her humanity was being robbed and it was a very cold and clinical experience. And I've thought about that because, you know, now we have Mama Bear Care, which I launched a few years ago, because I wanted to provide something for parents that wasn't there for us. I felt that we were groping in the dark and I was thinking about, you know, the contrast between how the news is presented. Typically, it might be, I'm so sorry. When do you want to schedule the termination versus your child has this condition? It does have challenges. And there you know, there are some significant concerns, but here are some resources. And we're here to walk alongside you. We're here to help you figure out what what those next steps are. I just I mean, thankfully for us, abortion was not presented as the next logical step. But that's unusual, actually. Most moms who receive a diagnosis, that is the expectation. When do you want to schedule the termination? You know, they might give them a few days to go home and, you know, think about things. But usually appointment after appointment, that's just what is pushed on them. And I think that initial conversation, what a difference it would make. You know, and I don't think it's necessarily bad to say, you know, I'm sorry because this is especially in a pregnancy period. But after the child is born, I mean, that that's that's so different. And yes, it's hard. I'm not going to sugarcoat it. It has been a difficult in many ways. But the families that we have served come back over and over and say they would do it all over again, even for the little ones who have passed, even if they only had some hours or days or months or a few short years. I mean, we don't know. We call it a life limiting diagnosis around here. And by the way, I appreciate you said adverse prenatal diagnosis. A lot of people, especially in the medical community, would say a fatal fetal diagnosis or they they would speak in very terminal, you know, death a a death sentence speaking that death sentence over the child without really knowing what the outcome is going to be. So we use life limiting. I think adverse diagnosis is not incorrect either, but those are a little more life affirming language use of language than some of the other terms that we've heard. |
| Ashley | You know, there's been a lot of research coming out, in fact, with shocking numbers, finding that a lot of these diagnosed these are flatly wrong. And in fact, you know, I've spoken with many pro-life OB-GYNs who've accompanied families like yours that have brought their child into the world and love their child who have seen shocking errors and correct it kind of raises the question, and I'm curious your thoughts on all of this as somebody who's who's been through this. I mean, what do we do with the world of prenatal diagnosis? I mean, it I imagine, benefits the family to know so that they can plan and prepare. But how do we how do we shift that world such that it's not something that's a leading people to, you know, abort children that are healthy? But that's not a reason to, you know. |
| Beverly Jacobson | I mean, yeah, how do you think I can't. |
| Sister Kristen Gardner | Even formulate the question? I know it's. |
| Ashley | A very complicated. |
| Beverly Jacobson | Issue. It is. Yes. I certainly have opinions. So it's kind of a double edged sword. Right? I felt that knowledge was power. I was thankful to know even as hard as it was. And I grieved, but I felt like I was able to process those emotions better and in my own timeline, while I was pregnant, rather than having an infant to care for. And so for me, that knowledge was power. It helped me learn to research, learn to advocate for her, especially after I heard a doctor referring to her as retarded and saying that she would be a drain on our family. You know, Mama Bear came out because Mama Bear wants to protect the baby. And I loved Verity, and I didn't care what her condition was going to be. I was scared. Sure, I didn't know how I would care for her, but for me, the knowledge drove me to research and prepared me to be a better advocate for my daughter. However, I also learned in my research that sometimes having a prenatal diagnosis is not helpful in the sense of getting the proper care for your child because it predisposes the doctors to not give certain kinds of care or interventions that they would do for any other child. So in the research, I was just shocked to learn that the outcomes for these babies with a prenatal diagnosis compared to postnatal was huge because the doctors, if they didn't have a preconditioned, you know, reaction to the baby, they would simply respond to the baby's needs. What a concept, right? If the baby needs respiratory support, well, let's do what we can to help that child feeding support, feeding tube. Whereas those children who had a prenatal diagnosis maybe were not offered those things. And parents didn't know. They didn't know to ask. They just didn't have that support in the resource. So, you know, there's that aspect of the whole prenatal screening thing that maybe we're setting ourselves up for failure. It's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy in that sense. And as you said, actually, the the the the track record for some of this testing, the noninvasive not excuse me, noninvasive prenatal testing and IPT. |
| Beverly Jacobson | Not diagnostically confirmed. It is something that especially for the more rare conditions can be incorrect over 80% of the time. The New York Times even reported that that is a huge failure rate. Huge. And so, again, we're setting up the scenario that there's something wrong, quote unquote, wrong with your child. And 80% of the time, that's not correct. I've heard so many stories, so many families. We have mama bears who come into our prenatal support group. |
| Sister Kristen Gardner | With with. |
| Beverly Jacobson | Just the idea that they might have a child with a condition. And we care for them because, you know, the emotional journey of not knowing, you know, many of them choose not to have an amniocentesis and so they don't get a confirmed diagnosis and then they come back after birth. They almost feel guilty because so many of our moms are walking this journey. But they say, my child is healthy, They're doing tests now and there's nothing, quote unquote, wrong. So it is it's that, yes, knowledge is power, but sometimes it's incorrect. But even if it is correct, as you alluded to, those are still precious lives and they're still unique and valuable. And we want to protect them and give them the care that they they need and that they deserve something. |
| Mary | You said, Beverly reminds me of a personal experience I had. My youngest was diagnosed at the 20 week scan with hydrogen of process and then bilateral pleural effusions. And when they came in to tell us this, you know, of course I started just burst into tears. I would you know, I heard the first three words and then nothing after that. Scary. And then, you know, the when the doctor asked if they could follow up with an amniocentesis, I was like, I am not aborting this baby under any circumstances. I don't want to hear that word. I mean, I just went, you know, this poor woman, I just went I went there, came out, I said to my husband, I think the words woman are at the top of my chart now. But she said she was she was Muslim doctor. And she said to me, listen, I wouldn't suggest that to you. And but the more I know about this baby before and the other side of this of your of your abdomen, the better I can treat her. And so, you know, when it's when it's phrased. But if you said that upfront like I'm not we're not suggesting termination that Catholic hospital we don't do that here and Ashley and I had both had the experience of hearing Dr. Elvira Perovic Sheedy, who's a neonatologist at Columbia University's hospital, and she sort of pioneered perinatal hospice. And I remember her talking about some of the many patients little patients she's treated. And she said, I always like to say, let's just see what the baby tells us. When the baby is born, the baby will tell us what he or she needs and she spoke about a couple of situations she had where the baby was perfectly healthy, but it also other situations where the baby went back to the Lord much more quickly than they had anticipated. So but she said, you know, you can't really treat someone until you actually are seeing them and holding them. So I like that kind of very personal. |
| Beverly Jacobson | Yes. |
| Mary | You know, connection to them. |
| Beverly Jacobson | It makes sense. Why wouldn't we? We say that a lot, too, to our mamas, because they you know, the doctors don't know. They can give their best guesses. And sure, you know, I went through all kinds of scans, but we didn't know until Verity was actually born. She did have holes in her heart. Now, I'm glad I didn't know because that would have given me something more to write. And as it turned out, Verity did not need heart surgery. But just to say we didn't have the full picture until she was born. And we asked exactly for that in our birth plan. We communicated it to everyone. When she's born, we want you to stabilize her and see what she needs and go from there. And, you know, we asked for them to treat her like any of our other babies. Whatever she needs, we're going to give that. And but you're right. If she had led the conversation with that for you, it would have been a lot more peaceful, a lot more calming, rather than, you know, raising your blood pressure and kind of putting you on the defense. |
| Ashley | That really I was my oldest daughter was about ten when my last child was born. And when the nurse called me with the results from the now ten week blood draw, when they can give you a lot of genetic information, including the sex, she kind of rattled through a few things and then she said, no, this, no that, no Down syndrome. And we ended the call. And I was shocked when my daughter said, What's down's syndrome? And I think, you know, I think about a family like yours. And I'm curious to know because I think it's it's so impoverishing for children and people in general to not be around or exposed to people with disabilities. And yeah, Do you feel your family is the better her? I'm sure I know the answer, but but tell us how and and how how do we convince society that we're better for their presence in the world as well? |
| Beverly Jacobson | yes. This is I feel like this is the conversation, you know, I just want to have. I just want the world to know how amazing life is with Verity. And I often say, you know, when I was pregnant and people would say, my child with, you know, insert condition here has made our lives so much better. And richer and we're happier. And I would hear that and like, my brain would process that and I would kind of think, okay, sure, on some level I believe that. But I think deep down, I just I mean, I was frankly overwhelmed with eight healthy kids. I didn't know how in the world I was going to care for a child with special needs. And I never want to hide the fact that I had those fears. And I struggled as a mama of many and knowing I am passionately pro-life. And I believe Verity is not a mistake. I believe she's a gift by just don't see how this is going to play out. God, I don't know how I'm going to be able to do this. And now that we are on the other side of eight years plus, we just celebrated her eighth birthday. I can say 100%. Those families are not lying. They are so these precious individuals have contributed so much. And I know that society would look at a child like mine or an adult who, you know, needs 100% care, and they would say, this person is a burden on society. What can this person possibly do for us? Well, that is completely focusing on the physical material realm. These people give us so much. And and Verity has a nurse who goes to school with her, and we talk all the time about how, you know, sometimes it feels like Verity goes more for the other kids benefit rather than her benefit. Her classmates love her. They have now many of them have been with her since pre-K days and she's in second grade and she doesn't go every day. And sure, she has her special activities and therapies and all kinds of things, but her classmates love her. And I am sure that even those who aren't in the house with her, like myself, you know, my children and Verity siblings are on a day to day basis. I believe their lives are being changed because they're watching Verity grow and develop at her own rate. They're cheering for her. You know, they they are excited when she comes to school and and to be with her. But closer to home, my own family absolutely has been changed for the better, especially the siblings that are close in age to her. They just don't remember life before Verity and she's always been part of the family dynamics. We have some older ones who have grown up and moved out of the house, but even our very old oldest ones who were only in the house for a few years with her, their lives have been profoundly changed as well. And and being her mom, I just I'm in awe. She teaches me so much every day. She has the hardest life of any of us. And yet she is joyful. She loves us. She bursts into smiles and giggles when she is around us and she truly does make our lives better. |
| Ashley | Well, we thank you so much, Beverly, for your veritable prolife witness and for sharing your time with us today to tell you about your amazing organization and your beautiful daughter. So where can I listeners go to find out more about your work? |
| Beverly Jacobson | Yeah, we would love to connect with you. We're on social media. Mama bear care, dawg. Mama care, dawg. It's where you can learn more about our our ministry, what we do to help the mommas that are in our group, our prenatal excuse me, our prenatal support group is on Facebook. There should be links to that on our website, but you can always reach out via the contact button or connect with me personally at Beverly Jacobson. Incom as well. |
| Ashley | Well, thank you so much, Beverly. |
| Beverly Jacobson | Thanks for having me. Take care. |
| Ashley | Welcome back to Conversations with Consequences. I'm your host, Ashley McGuire, and delighted to have back with us Monsignor Roger Landry, who you, our listeners know well from his many homilies that he's shared with us over the years. And now joining US Weekly to discuss whatever it is that's on the hearts and minds of Catholics around the world. And and this week it's the solemnity of Saint Joseph. And this is one of my personal favorites. We have a very strong devotion to Joseph in our home and just I love him so much. So, Monsignor, tell us about about this wonderful saint and what he means to Catholics. |
| MSGR. Landry | Saint Joseph was part of God's plans for the beginning. And like, it's it's easy for us as Catholics to think about our lady's role in salvation history. But in the same way that our lady was chosen for before the foundation of the world. So a Saint Joseph. For those who come to mass on the solemnity of Saint Joseph, March 19th every year in the first reading, there's a passage from the second book of Samuel talking about God's plans for his son. Eventually 28th generation, grandson of David. But that was only going to happen through the 27th generation grandson of David, who was Jesus, his father, according to the law, who was Saint Joseph. And so clearly part of salvation history. That's the first thing. Just God, the father Joseph, so much that he entrusted the raising of his only begotten son, according to his son's humanity, to this man. Second thing that's always fascinated me about Saint Joseph and God, the father's trust in him, in the way we should trust in him is Jesus. Life was at risk from Herod in his henchman, and rather than speaking to Joseph live in daylight, rather than giving him a couple of days head start in order to start scampering to Egypt in order to save his son's life. God, the father knew Saint Joseph so well that he could alert him in a dream right before Herod's henchmen were essentially at the door because he could trust so much in Saint Joseph's prompt response to whatever the Lord was asking, rather than deconstructing dreams. He picked up his entire life and moved with Mary not just once, but four different times. He did that because of his attentiveness to what God was asking. And so we all have to have a great love for Saint Joseph. I've been very moved by something Pope Benedict said about 15 years ago, which playing on words that Saint Joseph was a just man. He said, We all need to learn from Saint Joseph how to add just everything we do to what God is asking in. Saint Joseph is the great teacher of how to adjust, how to make right with God. Every part of our life. And so he's a he's a he's a great master in the school of Divine service and how lucky we are. The last thing I'll say about Saint Joseph is what Saint Teresa of Avila said. She was the one who, after our lady is probably the woman who had the greatest love, Saint Joseph of all time, perhaps until we got to Ashley McGuire. But nevertheless, Saint Teresa of Avila said she had never gone to Saint Joseph with any intention that Saint Joseph didn't follow through on. And so she dared the people of her rage to test her, to give something back to Saint Joseph and see if he ever lets them down. She had a great confidence that as long as the intention was in alignment with God's will, Saint Joseph would come through. And so, so many of the other saints over the course of the century have entrusted big intentions to Saint Joseph. I do it all the time myself and what an awesome opportunity it is to be able to celebrate the foster father of the family of God because God, the father didn't just want Joseph to help raise his son Jesus, according to his humanity, but to raise Ashley and Father Roger and everybody else. And so we turned to him during this week in which we celebrate him. We want to give him more than just a day. We want to really live our life under his strong paternal protection. But Saint Joseph is there for us, just like he was there for Mary. Just like him is there for Jesus. |
| Ashley | Well, I'm so blessed to be leaving. Shortly after our discussion to head down to my daughter's school where the school will do a pilgrimage, doing a rosary along the way, carrying a statue through an urban area of Saint Joseph and walking spiritually with him. And so I'll be pondering your words in my heart when I do that. So, Monsignor, thank you so much for your beautiful reflections on this most beloved of our saints. |
| MSGR. Landry | Great. Once again to be with you, Saint Joseph. Pray for us. |
| Ashley | Pray for us. Amen. Thank you, Monsignor. Thank you for joining us today. And we'll look for you next week with an exciting show in store. Matthew Haas is going to be joining us to talk about a wonderful new initiative. He has to thank our priests, something that I think is so necessary with the vocations crisis. He'll tell us a little bit about the numbers which are concerning. And we need to think are priests are priests are such a vital part of our Catholic culture and our Catholic life. And Matthew is is really spearheading an exceptional initiative to do that. We're also thrilled to have the entire TSI team headed together next week to record from the University of Notre Dame, our ladies campus, with a great conference on women in the church. We'll be talking about the genius feminism, what it means to be a Catholic woman today. It's such an important topic and we'll be interacting with really some of the best theologians and experts that the church has to offer on this front. This very important topic, something that Pope Francis himself said is is an important priority for the church right now. And we'll check in to see where we are with that. We'll also have a voice we haven't heard from in a while. Our former GK colleague and co-host Maureen Ferguson will be with us sharing details of the new user report out next week. Make sure to tune in and join us and we'd like to thank all of our guests and listeners for joining us today. Make sure to follow us on social media and as always, go with our prayers. |