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Episode Description
With thousands gathering in Washington, DC for the 2026 March for Life, we talk with National Review writer, Alexandra DeSanctis, about where the pro-life movement stands in a post-Dobbs landscape, especially as chemical abortion now accounts for roughly two-thirds of abortions and mail-order access continues to reshape the policy fight.
We also hear from Sarah Hurm who headlined the March for Life, sharing her powerful personal story of saving her fourth child by abortion pill reversal. She recounts how after taking the first abortion pill, she had immediate regrets and sought help through the abortion pill reversal hotline, undergoing a progesterone-based reversal protocol under a physician’s care that ultimately allowed her to welcome her son.
TCA Fellow Leigh Fitzpatrick Snead joins to discuss her new book Infertile but Fruitful: Finding Fulfillment When You Can’t Conceive, which chronicles her family’s infertility struggle. Snead offers candid discussion and hope for achieving a fulfilling marriage and family life despite facing infertility, and why despite her diagnosis she says her life “has been far from sterile.”
Monsignor Roger Landry remembers legendary Vatican journalist John Allen Jr. whose influence shaped a generation of Catholic reporters, reflecting on the trust, fairness, and clarity he brought to covering the Church until his death this month after a long battle with cancer.
Catch the show every Saturday at 7amET/5pmET on EWTN radio!
And don’t forget to subscribe to TCA’s daily media roundup for smart Catholic news and commentary delivered straight to your inbox.
Bios
Alexandra DeSanctis is a prominent journalist and author known for covering politics and culture with a focus on pro-life and family issues. She is a writer for National Review and a visiting fellow at the Ethics and Public Policy Center. She is co-author of the book, Tearing Us Apart: How Abortion Harms Everything and Solves Nothing. She graduated from the University of Notre Dame with a Bachelor’s Degree in Political Science and minors in Constitutional Studies and Theology. Her writing has appeared in major publications like the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, and the Washington Post. She is a former William F. Buckley, Jr. Fellow in Political Journalism at the National Review Institute. She lives in Virginia with her husband.
Sarah Hurm is a speaker, advocate, and mother of four who shares her personal experience with abortion pill reversal that saved her son — a powerful story she has brought to audiences around the country, including as a featured speaker at the 2026 March for Life. Her journey began when she was 26 and expecting her fourth child and faced harsh pressure from the father. She shares the immediate regret she experienced, and how she sought medical and emotional support through a doctor and a hotline for abortion pill reversal. She was able to reverse the chemical abortion process and ultimately save her child, serving as a testimony for hope and the inherent dignity and value of every life, even in difficult circumstances.
Monsignor Roger Landry is a priest of the Diocese of Fall River, Massachusetts. A graduate of Harvard and the Pontifical North American College in Rome, he served as Attaché to the Holy See’s Permanent Observer Mission to the UN in New York. In 2024, he was appointed National Director of the Pontifical Mission Societies in the USA by Pope Francis. He writes for numerous publications, speaks on radio and TV, and served as executive editor for the weekly newspaper of the Diocese of Fall River. He is the author of the book, Plan of Life: Habits to Help You Grow Closer to God, and leads pilgrimages to Rome, the Holy Land, and other sacred destinations. He was an on-site commentator for EWTN’s coverage of the 2013 papal conclave that elected Pope Francis. He is national chaplain for Catholic Voices USA and New York Chaplain for the Leonine Forum. Father Landry traversed the 1500-mile Eucharist Pilgrimage in 2024, which coincided with his 25th year in the priesthood.
The following transcript is machine generated.
Episode 354 Transcript
| Ashley | Wasn't the conversations with consequences now on EWTN radio. I'm your host, Ashley McGuire. |
| Leigh | And I'm Liz. |
| Ashley | Sneed. And we are so happy to have with us one of the many wonderful speakers who took to the stage during the 2020 6th March for life. Sarah Hurm is a proud single mother of four children who travels across the country sharing her story about abortion, pill reversal and how it saved our youngest child. Welcome to the show, Sarah. |
| Sarah Hurm | Hi. Thank you for having me. |
| Ashley | So, Sarah, you gave an incredible testimony at this year's March for life and telling your story of abortion pill reversals, such an important witness in a culture where abortion is increasingly, sadly, tragically dominated by the use of the abortion pill. And you specifically telling your story, about, the moment when you were having your ultrasound and something that the ultrasound tech said to you and how that's set into motion, your story. So could you tell us a little bit, tell us about that moment and tell us about your story? |
| Sarah Hurm | Yeah. So I guess the beginning of my story is I was a single mom of three children, and when I found out I was pregnant with my fourth child, I told the father and I was really looking for support. Because this was a very daunting realization for me. And he responded, we're 26 years old, four kids, three different dads. That doesn't look good. And so his words and promptings led me to an abortion facility. And it was in that abortion appointment we had an ultrasound. And what the nurse said to me in that appointment, I will always remember as well, which was, you're lucky the heartbeat bill hadn't passed, because if it had, we wouldn't be able to continue because we detect a strong heartbeat. Wow. And that was a very hard thing to hear. Especially because I knew it was a baby. And I knew it had a heartbeat. I knew it was a person, but, I just kept hearing what the father had said about me, and I felt like that was what I needed to focus on instead of the reality of the heartbeat. At that moment. |
| Leigh | And then you decided to seek help to reverse the abortion between the two pills. What? What was that turning point for you? |
| Sarah Hurm | So as soon as I walked out of claim or out of the abortion facility, I realized I deeply regretted this decision. I could just sense that it was the wrong decision. And so I started looking online and just typing in various questions, seeing if there was any way I could reverse a chemical abortion or if I could, save my baby from a chemical abortion. And this hotline kept popping up. And so I wrote the hotline number down, and I figured I would give them a call if I continued having the feelings of regret. And so I ended up calling the hotline within the next 12 hours or so. And I was met with a very sweet, kind voice on the other end who connected me with a local doctor, and she was able to listen and kind of just spend a little extra time to make sure I was comfortable with the decision. And at that next appointment with that local doctor, I was told there was no promises that he could save my baby. And I told him I didn't need promises, I just needed hope. And so we started the reversal process. And then in January of 2018, I gave birth to my fourth child. |
| Ashley | That's so amazing. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about what abortion reversal actually entails? And, you know, just generally, how successful does it tend to be? |
| Sarah Hurm | So it is about 60% effective and it's progesterone. I was administered progesterone by the doctor, and then they just kind of monitor you throughout the next few weeks with, at least with me, they did, they checked my ACG levels and then ultrasounds just to make sure everything was progressing as a regular pregnancy does. And then it's up to the doctor as to how long you're on the progesterone. |
| Ashley | But. |
| Leigh | Yeah. And for our listeners too, what's the is there a specific window after you've taken that first pill? When you decide to change your mind and you seek medical care, is there a point at which, like it's too late? |
| Sarah Hurm | Yes. So when I called the hotline, they made sure I had only taken the first drug of the chemical abortion protocol. And then they usually usually say 24 hours is the best time frame to get in for a PR. But they say they've also seen people up to 72 hours. Again, that's something that you kind of discuss with the hotline when you call. And then that's why you're also then sent to a doctor. So then that way the medical professional can review everything, but it's usually 24 to 72 hours. |
| Ashley | And so you do you. This happened to you in 2019. And I think for our listeners who aren't aware, there's been, a lot of changes to the way. Basically the elimination of almost any and all guardrails that used to surround the administering of the abortion pill. So my understanding is you went in person to a clinic. Now you can literally just mail order them. And can you address a little bit, the misperceptions that the abortion pill is safe, that it's just like taking an Advil. |
| Sarah Hurm | I mean, I think the fact that you have to go to a medical professional to really make sure they're there to support the the woman kind of goes to show that it's not as simple as taking a Tylenol. I just know whenever it comes to medical, or medication protocols, you should always go to a doctor first. You know, you should always make sure you're under the care of a provider, a medical professional, because it's a medical medication. It's a procedure. So I think that is actually the greatest part of Appr is you do have that medical professional to walk with you through that procedure. |
| Leigh | And what about the criticism that I've seen? I've read in a few articles in the mainstream media that, that say that the abortion pill reversal protocol is unsafe for women. Do you have any thoughts on that? |
| Sarah Hurm | I just kind of keep going back to my story, and I remind them that I was under the care of a medical doctor, and we were in very close communication. He monitored me throughout the whole regimen of the EPR process. And I do have my fourth child here living. He's healthy. He's thriving. I mean, so I can only truly speak to my experience. But everything in my experience has shown that it's, a second chance at life. It's hope. And it's supported by medical professionals that want to walk through that process with you. |
| Leigh | Yeah, that's a big contrast between ordering it or ordering the abortion pill online. And, you know, getting this great care when you're trying to reverse it. Anyway go ahead Ashley. |
| Ashley | Well, and my understanding is that that same hope is what OB GYNs use to help women who are at a high risk for miscarriage, basically the same protocol. So it's absolutely grounded in science and medical precedent. Tell us about what it was like to speak to the March for life. What was it like being up there at the stage and looking out at such a, young and exciting and energetic crowd? |
| Sarah Hurm | It was one of a kind. I've never spoken at such a big event. I've never spoken in front of such a wide ranging, group of people, and it was just so full of life. And then I think what made me most comfortable as I was walking up to the stage or the podium was out of nowhere, this gentleman in the crowd yelled, go, Sarah! And you know, I just I think it's kind of interesting how he yelled that. And that gave me peace. And then towards the end of my talk, you know, I was like, man, your voice carries weight. Like, we need your support. And so in my mind, it was just a beautiful way that everything kind of loops together. And it it just felt, |
| Ashley | Joyful. |
| Leigh | Have you been to the March for life before? As a. |
| Ashley | Marcher? |
| Sarah Hurm | I have not. I've only really paid attention to the March for life since about 2018. And I've been trying to get there and it just hasn't worked out. So this was really following. |
| Leigh | Pretty stellar first. |
| Sarah Hurm | Time. Yeah. |
| Ashley | So, Sarah, you grew up in a Catholic household, if I correctly understand. Tell us a little bit about your upbringing and your faith. And, you know, if and how that shaped your decision to choose life in that difficult moment. |
| Sarah Hurm | I did grow up, always going to church as a Catholic. I went to Catholic school. I often remember my seventh grade religion class when we talked about, fetal development, and I remember holding on to the models, you know, and I remember back then and always thinking like, that's got to be a really hard decision. But I was like, I'm never going to be in that situation. And so life kind of just unfolds differently than you might expect it. And so finding myself in that position was, of course, very hard. But it was also through going through the chemical abortion and then the reversal process that I really started to rely on God surrender to God. And that was really the big kind of reversion of my faith that I had, because I had strayed away for a while after high school. It was just it was a journey of, you know, redemption and figuring out what I wanted to do with my life as far as faith and relying on God. And, you know, it hasn't disappointed. |
| Leigh | And have you had a lot of experience with women coming to you seeking advice or, you know, that women that find themselves in that situation? You know, have you had any sort of, like, wonderful reconversion stories with women, who are going through this? I suppose that short window, they probably hopefully go straight to the doctor, but what if your, What if your personal interactions been like since you've become a public speaker on this? |
| Sarah Hurm | I've had a handful of women reach out on social media. Usually after they have started the reversal process. It's been probably a year or two since anyone's actually reached out. But I've had a few women reach out and kind of share a bit of their story, and they just want to know they aren't alone in what they're going through. And so I usually just listen. I'm there for them as best I can. And just, you know, remind them that they're doing everything they can and, that it hasn't always been successful. But I think the fact that they know they're at least not alone has been a great consolation for a few of these women. |
| Leigh | Wonderful. |
| Ashley | You know, there's an ad that's gone viral, I think, in a not great way. Maybe you've seen it. It's, it when it went out during the snowstorm and I think it was Kentucky Fried Chicken or something, where they were like, oh, women. You know, choose wisely. Tonight you could be, in nine months, you could be at a concert, or you could be changing a diaper. And pro-lifers really pounced on that, as just kind of a a sad manifestation of the way we view babies and children. And so I think one of the things that's so powerful about your witness is the way you constantly refer to your son as a blessing. What is your what is your message to a culture? Whether it's an abortion minded culture or just an anti baby culture. About, you know, how to view children as a blessing and not as a burden. That is a loaded question. |
| Sarah Hurm | Again, I think it just comes from the interactions with that child. And again, it is it's hard to kind of sit here and tell them all the ways that my kids are a blessing to me. It's something that you definitely have to feel and experience, but we all want to feel loved. We all want to feel accepted. We all want to feel wanted. And so honestly, through watching my kids love me, even on my not so great days like that is a huge blessing. You know, these kids look up to you. You are their world. And it's just so humbling to see these little humans love you so much and bring such a smile and such a different perspective. It's truly, in my opinion, the best way to experience joy in this life is through the eyes and the love of a child. |
| Leigh | Yeah, well, I think Ashley and I would definitely agree. We've got four and five. So we understand that joy that comes from that. What, what do you want to. |
| Sarah Hurm | See. |
| Leigh | Happen with, the future of this, protocol? I mean, do you have any sort of. Even if they're not your personal goals, but what you'd like to see. I mean, is it something like you'd like more doctors available in more states, more awareness. Tell me what your kind of dream is for this thing that gave you this great blessing. |
| Ashley | |
| Sarah Hurm | I just want to start with people knowing that it is out there. You know, so many people, when they find out my story, the first thing they say is, wow, I had no idea that was a thing. And so I think awareness people just need to know it's out there. And again, even if you're a man or even if you're not in the childbearing ages, it's important for them to know about it because they could encounter someone in their life who went and took the first pill. And, you know, they're turning to someone for advice. So awareness from my standpoint, is probably the most important thing. And I think the more the awareness grows, then the more, you know, medical professionals will be out there to administer it. And, the support for women will just continue to grow. |
| Ashley | You know, I know that, two thirds of abortions now happen with the abortion pill. And, you know, I think even if, if many, many more women change their minds, the fact that, it's a 60% effective means that there's probably a lot of hurt and regret out there. What what is your message to the women who change their minds too late or for who? It didn't work. Or who? You know, years later, wish they would have made a different choice. |
| Sarah Hurm | I think I would just start by saying I understand and there is healing out there. Like, you can find healing and you can find, a bit not peace necessarily with the decision, but with where you're at in life and just knowing that you are still loved. You are not damaged. You are not, beyond redemption, you know, because I think a lot of times women just, it's this whole mental shift that happens in a woman once they take that first pill. And I have found great healing through poster board of counseling, and I still have my son, but I was even feeling a lot of, you know, just certain emotions and strong feelings and things. And there are so many different organizations out there that want to offer hope and healing. If you were not able to reverse the chemical abortion or if you have had an abortion, and I think it's really important to give those, healing, organizations a try because it's it's life changing once you realize, like, you can take that to the Lord and you can lay it down, and he still loves you, and you can have life after. |
| Leigh | Wow. That's really beautiful. Can you share with our, listeners some of the names of those organizations? |
| Sarah Hurm | I know there's embrace Grace and Rachel's Vineyard. Those are the two that I have heard the most about. But I also know local pregnancy resource centers have a variety of their own, counseling services available. And so if you don't know where in where to find one, I would say find your local pregnancy resource center or church. And I'm pretty sure they will know of at least one that they could direct a woman to, to at least begin to find healing. |
| Leigh | Yeah, great. |
| Ashley | Well, and also, you know, Leah has just come out with a book about her path through infertility to adoption. But I think it's important for women to hear, too, that they can change their minds about having an abortion. And if they still don't feel ready to keep their baby, that there's so many families out there that would love to adopt their baby. And so there's there's more than one choice and path is abortion pill reversal, even for women who feel overwhelmed, unprepared. But. Well, Sarah, thank you so much for spending time with us today and expanding a little bit on your beautiful March for life message. And and sharing your witness. Truly, topic that women need to hear about is that, as we've mentioned many times in our conversation, this is the direction that the abortion industry is going. And it's it's dangerous. It puts women in danger. It puts babies in danger. And they're working actively to lie and suppress women's real choices even after they've chosen abortion. There are still in place. So we thank you, Sarah. Where can our listeners find out more about, your story, your work resources, those sort of things? |
| Sarah Hurm | We're I have a new YouTube channel. It's just my first and my last name. I have a website. And then, I'm sure as we kind of get things developed, we can make sure we have kind of links to other resources that could help women nationwide find whatever they're looking for. |
| Ashley | And you have a book two, right? |
| Sarah Hurm | I do, it's a self-published book, that was written back in 2022, I think, I ended up journaling to my baby while I was going through the reversal process, and I ended up putting those journal entries in the book. So. |
| Ashley | Yeah, one. Sarah, we thank you so much for joining us today. |
| Sarah Hurm | No problem. Thank you for having me. |
| Ashley | Welcome back to conversations with consequences. Now on EWTN radio. I am joined by my wonderful colleague Lee Sneed, whose book Infertile But Fruitful is out this week. Lee, welcome to the show. |
| Leigh | Thank you Ashley. It's always fun to be on as a guest. |
| Ashley | You know, I'm welcoming you, but you're actually really a co-host. But we're discussing your book because it's out this week. You were getting lots of play. I'm seeing it picked up and mentioned and lots of different places. But one of them, was a review written by our friend Nora Kenny in the Washington Free Beacon, which is the Washington Free Beacon. |
| Leigh | It was. And she's a guy now, too, because she's a newlywed. |
| Ashley | Right. And she I thought was interesting. She said she she read your book on our honeymoon, which she said felt kind of weird to be reading about infertility at the beginning of it, but but she said that it actually was a really beautiful reflection on marital love and self gift and just openness to life. I love this quote. She says into this conversation enters least need. By this conversation, she means truly. I think a national conversation that is going on about the subject of infertility, which is something that, many couples suffer from, and it seems like increasingly so now, she writes in her new book, Infertile but Fruitful. Sneed, an Indiana mother of four, tells not of overcoming biological infertility but of love, marriage and yearning. Writing in the hilarious, relatable voice of a big sister, a stylish one who happens to have studied doctoral level philosophy, run a popular fashion blog and moved effortlessly to elite intellectual circles, Sneed chronicles a life contoured by longing, tracing how marriage and vocation take shape in the absence of a hearts deepest desire. So, and. |
| Leigh | Yes, I'm a little worried that people are going to think I paid Nora because it's so such a glowing review. But yeah, I was really, really happy that she did it. And I actually, I was so relieved when I read it because she had told me that she was reading it on her honeymoon, and I kind of felt bad about that. But yeah, I know it seemed like it was good. And, her husband actually is reading it and he likes it too, so. |
| Ashley | Well, I've loved and I've I've used this quote of yours from an interview you did with EWTN about your book. You talked about the book being the book you wish you had when you were in your 20s. And as something for those suffering from infertility or people who love them. And I keep thinking to myself, who does that not describe? |
| Because even if you know, you yourself haven't struggled with infertility, we all know somebody who has, and all of us need better resources to understand how to, love and understand those people during that, struggle. But also, I think what your book so beautifully does is remind us of the church's beautiful teachings about these issues. So just briefly, can you remind our listeners about why it is you decided to write this book in the first place? | |
| Leigh | You know, it's funny you bring up that quote because it really is. It is true, definitely at the outset that I thought about when I was looking for books, when I was in my 20s and just being unsuccessful, finding the one that kind of fit for me. But while I was going through, infertility and really trying hard to conceive, I'm not sure I would have wanted exactly this story when I was in the midst of it, where the, you know, the main character doesn't get pregnant, but at the same time, you're still in the minute, you're in the middle of it. You're not pregnant right now, and you need to those first chapters anyway. At least you can feel like, okay, my feelings are normal. In fact, I've got some, messages from people now that the book has come out that people. Just like I stayed up all night to read it. You know, I'm newly wed. We've been trying for so long. This is how I felt. I felt this way, too. And I guess I felt ashamed to. For these ugly feelings, uncharitable feelings. And so that's like, wow. That's why I wrote the book. When I get those kind of messages, I feel like, yes, this is it. But again, I couldn't have written it. I don't think until I wrote it because I was nearing 50, it was getting easier to say out loud, I'm never going to get pregnant. Like, I'm not going to be one of those weird stories where you know, someone tries everything forever. And then in her 40s, this like last minute, you know, baby comes on the scene like realizing, like, that's not going to mean that's really not going to be my ending. And it's crazy to me that hearing myself say that, that it took me that long to get to that point. I mean, basically, I lived my life as if that were true, but still, you know, there were irregularities in a cycle or something. I would be like, you know, it's it's a habitual sort of instinctive thought that if something isn't the way it was last month, that maybe that's pregnancy, you know. So I think once I got to that point and I was sort of I was like the end of that arc, that part of my life, then I was able to kind of round it all up and share it with people. |
| Ashley | And how's the book doing? I know we we discussed Nora's review, but where else has it been, getting picked up? And what are some of the other interviews you're looking forward to doing? |
| Leigh | You know, I wrote a piece that I actually really was very proud of for the Catholic Exchange about IVF being a pro-life issue, and that. So that was out a couple maybe last week I was interviewed by our Sunday visitor and that should be out soon. I wrote a piece for every magazine that's out today. I have a couple podcasts booked, the Messy Family podcast, The Catholic Bookworm. There's one about virtue, but I'll make sure I post all that on my newly rebooted website, thanks to our colleague Betsy Lee Fitzpatrick. SI.com. You can find everything that I'm doing to promote the book and where it's being mentioned. I hopefully it's with a few other reviewers. I'm hoping that there's some more positive, I hope reviews soon, but yeah, just talking about it as much as I can to anyone who will listen because I do think it's helpful. And it was nice because even though weather prevented me from going to the march and, meeting people and just letting them know this is a resource, I had several friends who were there on the ground who were at different events, and people said to them, oh, have you heard about this new book? And so that's always fun to hear those kind of stories. So I think, again, like, it's going to be something that people it's not infertility, like you said, it's not like just a one time issue. It's it's it's all the time. So. |
| Ashley | Well, I encourage our listeners to Bailey's book infertile but Fruitful Finding Fulfillment when you Can't Conceive out this month from Sophia Institute Press. And it was fun talking with you about it today. Thanks, Ashley. |
| Betsy | Welcome back to conversations with consequences. I'm Betty Fentress, and I am joined by our chaplain, Monsignor Roger Landry. And Monsignor, you had a friend died this week who is very important in Catholic journalism. Can we talk about John Allen and his important role being centered and stationed at the Vatican all these years? |
| MGSR Landry | John Allen was really a giant in the Catholic coverage of the church in general in the Vatican and the popes in particular. He died of cancer at the age of 61 on January 22nd, and his funeral was early this week. On January 26th in Rome. And the Catholic Church lost somebody who really helped us to grow in our understanding and our prayer for the heart of the church in Rome. John for many years, for 25 years was stationed in Rome, and he began as the reporter for the National Catholic Reporter. Most Catholics in the U.S. will know that the National Catholic Reporter often rings a bell for changing church teaching to be more in line with the sexual revolution than with the truth that Jesus always taught us through the church. There's some excellent reporting normally in the National Catholic Reporter, but unlike the National Catholic Register, you can't always trust its theology. But I have to say, John Allen was someone that even if people didn't like the National Catholic Reporter, there were almost always reading John Allen because John was incredibly fear. He based all his opinions on the facts and the interviews that he had given. And so he was a real source of what Catholic journalists should always be truly, truly fear to the perspectives of people on, on different sides of a question. Somebody who you knew when you were speaking to him could be trusted, to quote you accurately. He wasn't trying to squeeze you into a preconceived narrative. And so for about a decade and a half, John worked very hard as the National Catholic Reporters, Vatican journalist. So during that time he wrote many important books. But one of the books that he wrote was On the Future Pope Benedict. And John himself said that he didn't think he was ultimately feared of Benedict when he wrote that book, that he he learned a lot about Benedict's character after the book. And so at times he was a little bit embarrassed by it because he started to see so much more of what Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger and Pope Benedict had given to the church. And then he, as an entrepreneur, helped to found crux with The Boston Globe, which still exists and has filled a very important role in English speaking understanding of what's really going on in the Vatican. He brought now my, vice president for communications in San Martin onto his team. He brought lots of other good journalists onto his team. And for a while they were the most important English speaking source covering the Vatican. So if you really wanted to understand what was happening and why it was happening, you'd go to John and the team that John had put together. He mentored lots of young journalists. He was constantly trying to promote their vocation in covering the church, and so made an enormous impact, as you can see, in the sheer amount of tributes that have been written since his. |
| Betsy | Yes. |
| MGSR Landry | 22nd death toll is the amount of people who were present at his funeral at Sant Eugenio in Rome on Monday. It was kind of a who's who of not only English speakers in Rome, journalists and beyond journalists, but also everybody else, because John was one of the great journalists covering the Vatican, no matter what the language was. And so we've we've lost somebody who made the church stronger, educated the church, and informed the church so that the church itself could be formed. He's written other books. He had a good book length interview with Cardinal Timothy Dolan of New York, who is about to retire next week. On February 6th, the 76th birthday. He wrote a book on Bishop Robert Barron and all that he was doing word on fire. He wrote really a classic study on Opus Day, what it really means and what its controversies were. You know, John was able to write that type of book because he could be fair to everybody. And over the course of time he said, like, okay, there are some issues with Opus Day, but for the most part it is for the sanctification of ordinary men and women in the middle of the world. And here's what they do. And let's not exaggerate some of the criticisms that might have taken place from one member or another. And so anybody who's ever read John has learned not just a lot of substance, but a method about how to cover controversial issues inside the church or outside in a very fair and I could say Catholic loving, truthful way. And so we we entrust him to the merciful care of the Lord Jesus, in whom John believed, and whose church John tried to cover with the fidelity of a true Catholic journalistic vocation. |
| Betsy | What were the gifts that John Allen brought to the Vatican community that made insiders feel confident in sharing all kinds of information that nobody else had? |
| MGSR Landry | Well, in Italian society in general, there is a suspicion people don't trust each other enough, especially in terms of media. People expose their sources. Sometimes people manipulate what somebody says in order to spin their own narrative. Rather than really approach it truthfully. And then inside the Vatican in particular, it's really only the Vatican spokesman who's supposed to speak, or the Holy Father of the secretary of state. It's not everybody else who's got something to say that's not the culture there. And so when John would call on up to ask them some background information of whatever was going on, most of his sources trusted him, that he'd both protect the source as well as get it accurate. And John would be able to say he hears the criticism. Is there an explanation for the criticism? And when they'd give the explanation, John would be faithful to what they said, even if he had to summarize it because they knew he understood them well enough that they that he would get the nuances of what they were saying and convey that accurately. Likewise, for a lot of his work, he couldn't actually quote somebody because most couldn't speak on the record. And so whether they were speaking on background or off the record, every reader knew that when John said he spoke to somebody in that particular DeCastro, that John wasn't making up his sources, that John was actually conveying truthfully what was said to him. And so that's why people all across the spectrum trusted John, because John really wanted to listen very carefully and convey accurately what was being said, so that he'd be able to answer the questions first. He had, and he knew so many readers had about what was happening and why it was happening. That's one of the reasons why he was a real giant among all Vatican City, all those journalists covering Vatican news. |
| Betsy | Well, it's a real loss to the Catholic journalism world. And thank you so much for sharing all of your insights about John Allen's gifts. |
| MGSR Landry | God bless you, Betsy. |
| Ashley | Welcome to conversations with consequences now on EWTN radio. I'm your host, Ashley McGuire. |
| Betsy | And I'm Betsy Fentress. |
| Ashley | And we are delighted to have with us today Alexandra DeSanctis. She is a seasoned journalist that has written extensively for the National Review, and has her pulse on the current state of the pro-life movement. She wrote a book that made a big splash right after the Dobbs decision came down and titled Tearing Us Apart How Abortion Harms Everything and Solves Nothing. And now, Alexandra, we are looking at the great showing at the March for life last Friday, and it does seem like we're in a new era. This post Dobbs era with so many young people coming out and marching. So welcome to the show, Alexandra. |
| Alexandra DeSanctis | Thanks so much for having me. Great to be with you. |
| Ashley | So I thought we could start by taking a step back. You're somebody who I think people really come to look to for clear eyed, dispassionate analysis, about this most important issue. So can you give us a sense of your. What is the lay of the land? With the pro-life movement, the march. You know, it's always incredibly inspiring, but I think we're all aware there's still a lot of challenges, a lot of work to be done. So what are your thoughts on on where the movement stands now? |
| Alexandra DeSanctis | Sure. So I would say, yeah, it's very encouraging to see people from all across the country still turning out for the March for life now coming up on four years after the Dobbs decision, the march started as a response to Roe v Wade, of course, and wanting it overturned. It has been and still people are coming out, which is a great sign even, you know, with a snowstorm brewing, people are marching into the teeth of an ice storm to be in DC. And that tells you that the issue isn't going away, right. Roby Wade being overturned was not the end of the pro-life movement. People are not ready to pack up and go home and call it good there. So that's encouraging, certainly. But I think we've also seen statistics recently, estimates suggesting that the abortion rate has actually gone up a lot since Rose overturned. So the the fight here is far from over. And there's energy in the pro-life movement. But I think the struggle is twofold. How do we how do we kind of pivot and, and treat this more as a deeply rooted cultural issue than perhaps we've been used to doing? And how do we how do we treat this as a political issue in a climate where politicians on both sides of the aisle are increasingly, not very interested in and working with the movement, I think. |
| Betsy | So speaker Mike Johnson gave a pretty moving story about, he himself as being a product of an unplanned pregnancy. Is that a story that was widely known? And where do you see him in fitting into this picture of kind of growing tension within the Republican Party and the Republican administration about what to do post? |
| Alexandra DeSanctis | Dobbs well, I wasn't familiar with that story. It's possible that he's spoken about it before, and I had missed it. But I don't think it was commonly or widely known that that was part of his life story. So I think it's great that he he chose to share it. A lot of people, I'm sure that resonated with them. And I think he's been, as far as I can tell, very staunchly pro-life, as a politician and as leader of the House. But, you know, just to take one example, we've in recent weeks seen President Trump pushing, Republicans to be, as he put it, flexible on the Hyde Amendment, which protects taxpayers from having their money fund abortions. We've seen the white House roll out a, you know, kind of white paper proposal of sorts for the health care plan that didn't include the Hyde Amendment. So there's really pressure now on lawmakers to put something like that, you know, formerly a non-negotiable pro-life policy on the chopping block. And so I think for someone like Johnson, who has been very aligned with the president very much, you know, pushing the same policy priorities as the white House, that's a that's a moment where you might have to choose, are we going to pick the pro-life, you know, stance there? Are we going to go in a new direction? |
| Ashley | Let's talk a little bit about the abortion pill, because as you mentioned, the number of people having the number of abortions has gone up and many have said pointed out rightly, that that's largely driven by the abortion pill. And that was an issue where there was some tension surrounding the March for life because of Vice President Vance. There was a lot of pressure being put on him from the pro-life movement to clarify what is this administration's position on the issue? So what what are your thoughts on that? I mean, what should pro-lifers be demanding? Right now when it comes to the abortion bill? |
| Alexandra DeSanctis | Yeah, that's a great question. And just to give a little bit of context. So chemical abortions are, they make up about two thirds of all the abortions in the country. And that's a rising figure. So more and more abortions every year are chemical abortions. These take place early in pregnancy. They're they're done via, pills that women take at home. And because of executive policy, which was put in place under President Biden and not reversed by the Trump administration thus far, women can get these pills via mail without ever seeing a doctor in person, which means that even if you live in a pro-life state, even if you live in a state with laws, protecting unborn children, at some point during pregnancy or throughout all of pregnancy, you can still have a telemedicine appointment, you know, be prescribed abortion drugs and get them via mail and have an abortion. So that's a huge part of why the abortion rate is going up in spite of, you know, something like 20 states now having really meaningful pro-life laws, protections for unborn children with something like the abortion pill that's just undercutting all of those laws and making it basically impossible to prevent women from getting abortions. So that's a really that's a really big deal. And we knew that that was true of the pro-life movement, knew that going into the 2024 election. And unfortunately, the stance of the Trump Vance campaign then was, we're not going to touch chemical abortion. You know, we basically supported that both candidates said that. And I think the pro-life movement was hopeful that that would change once they were in office. And thus far it hasn't. They could, through the Department of Health and Human Services, simply undo the Biden rule change that allows those drugs to be available via telemedicine and via mail, and they've chosen not to do so. So that's a really big deal. And I think for the pro-life movement to see that not happen in a really pro-life administration, that would have been a first 100 days top priority. And it hasn't been. And I could opine on why I think that might be. But I think the simple point is that's the top line issue for the movement right now. That is why why the abortion rate is rising. It's harmful to women. It obviously kills unborn children. And for that not to happen is a big deal. |
| Betsy | Could you opine a little bit more on that? I think you're really an insider and we'd love to hear, some of your theories of why this hasn't come to pass. |
| Alexandra DeSanctis | Yeah, well, I mean, I don't have any any secret knowledge about it, but I would say my readers, if you look at the the way the Republican Party, not as a whole, but, you know, I think more and more throughout the post Dobbs years, we've seen a lot of political hesitation to touch the abortion issue. We've seen a lot of Republicans who previously were in favor of something like, say, a 15 week ban on abortion at the national level, saying, oh, this is really just a state's issue. We can't do anything about this. You saw the Republican Party soften its platform on the pro-life issue and, and, you know, remove language saying, for example, we support the fundamental right to life of the unborn child that's no longer in the Republican platform. And so I think that the simple, calculation is many Republicans now think that this is a politically toxic issue. And you even saw President Trump in 2022 blame Republican midterm losses on the abortion issue, even though if you look at the evidence, there's really no reason to think that staunchly pro-life politicians won by much larger margins than those who are softer on the issue. So I don't think there's evidence of that. But I do think there's a fear that this issue is going to cost Republicans elections. And so, more and more people are thinking, well, maybe we just don't want to touch chemical abortion, because that's kind of in this mushy middle where more Americans are inclined to think, you know, on the whole, abortions around 12 weeks are probably fine. So we'll just let it slide. |
| Ashley | Looking at the demographics of the pro-life movement, you know, this was the first year in probably 15 years that I didn't go long winded reason why, but I was encouraged because my two older kids did go. So it felt kind of like an actual passing of the torch. And, you know, every year that I've gone, I feel older and older to the point that, you know, I feel like I'm at a youth rally. But, I also want to make sure that we, you know, we talk so much about how young the pro-life movement is, but what is the actual, what are the what are the views, what are the perceptions, the polling on young people and this issue, because more and more, this is going to become the generation that shapes the future of this movement. |
| Alexandra DeSanctis | Yeah, that's a really important question. And I, I think, the statistic I come back to, I guess the two statistics I come back to on this are younger generations are far likelier than they used to be to describe themselves as pro-life. And yet, if you ask younger generations if they would be willing to drive their friend to an abortion clinic, they are more likely to say yes. And so what that tells me is two things, right? We have a growing recognition that, yes, this is a human being in the womb. There's a human life here. There's something sort of wrong or problematic about taking that life, certainly unthinkingly. But there's also kind of this implicit thought of, well, you know, if I were in a pinch or my friend were in a pinch, right, it wouldn't really be kind, it wouldn't be compassionate, it wouldn't be the right thing to make that decision for someone else. So I think there's obviously a tension there. But there's kind of these two warring impulses. And I think that really is representative of where a lot of Americans, most Americans, are on this issue. |
| Betsy | You know, there's been a lot of chatter there was before the march about president, Vice President Vance's participation, given some of the recent moves that you've talked about, and your colleague Catherine Lopez even thought about skipping it and wrote about that in the National Review. So now, even after we're getting statements from the Susan B Anthony Pro-Life America asking the administration to end the mail order abortion. But as you noted recently, in the National Catholic Register, quote, you, you write, the pro-life movements efforts to affect change through policy must grapple with the increasingly obvious fact that neither major political party appears prepared to act on behalf of unborn children in any meaningful way. Do you see any people, in the leadership in Washington besides Speaker Johnson, that you think are going to change the course at all of this conversation? Well. |
| Alexandra DeSanctis | I don't know that I could name anybody in particular. I think it's, it's really going to be a matter of of can the pro-life movement find its footing with regard to what it's going to, try to get from Republicans from here on out? Right? I mean, the Trump administration, maybe we can get some policy wins. Maybe we can. Of course, I'm hopeful that we will, even though we haven't really seen a trend in that direction. On the bigger policy questions. But I think the bigger question up for debate is what is the next Republican nominee going to have to say about abortion? Are we going to, is the movement going to rally behind somebody who says they support chemical abortion, as Trump and Vance did in the 2024 campaign? You know, as a group like Susan B answering was going to go door to door for Republican candidates who don't say they're against all abortions. Those are really big. And important questions. Is the March for life going to have speakers who are have publicly supported some amount of legal abortion? No, I don't I don't have the answers to what what they ought to do. I mean, I suppose I have my opinions on that, but those are really difficult questions because at a certain point. Yeah. And the other side of the aisle, you have no holds barred abortion extremism from the Democrats. And that's not going to change anytime soon. And so at a certain point you might be thinking, well, we better just take the best we can get and hope we can get more. But I also think there's a point where you have to ask yourself, what what is the influence of my movement for? What are we trying to accomplish if our, you know, so to speak, our candidates are not even going to do something as simple as as reinstate safety regulations for chemical abortion when they usually could. |
| Ashley | I've, I've never been able to get Ryan Anderson's piece about the future of the pro-life movement. And first things out of my head, it's really, caused me to rethink a lot of things. And he he so heavily emphasizes the importance of marriage and, the protective nature that marriage has on, life and that the vast majority of abortions are happening outside of marriage. And at the same time, there's been this concurrent growth of a discussion about prenatal ism. And, I think a lot of traditional conservatives have pointed out that, you know, prenatal ism also needs to stay tethered to marriage as well. So what are your thoughts on on that? And, and you know, how we can better, message and, and impact the culture, in a pro marriage way? That makes people just more marriage minded to begin with. |
| Alexandra DeSanctis | Yeah, I think that's really important. That was a really important piece. And I think, the pro-life movement would be wise to start thinking more along those lines. And it currently does. And I see some indications that that people are starting to move more in that direction. But, for example, the main reason that women get abortions is typically the father of the child isn't supporting that right, either wants them to get an abortion or wants nothing to do with them, and the baby. And so really at the root of abortion is, is the fact that we live in a culture where there's an expectation of unmarried sex, and the consequence of that is children some of the time. And what do we do about that? And so in a culture where that's the expectation, where marriage is not the norm before people are having sex. Yeah. You're always going to have abortion because abortion is the backstop for that lifestyle. Abortion is the get out of jail free card for that lifestyle. And and so then you see where the argument of, well, women need abortion, right? It isn't fair to women not to have a legal abortion. And you can see how that follows. If your premise is, well, men and women can have sex with whomever, and men get to walk away. Women obviously can't do that if they're pregnant. Right. And so abortion becomes how we level the playing field. Now, of course, the the unspoken part is it's an act of violence against their own child that's harmful to the woman as well. Right. But you can see where that that mindset comes along. And so I think we really are only going to get so far as a movement until we're willing to really grapple with that premise, which is is the root of what's fueling abortion. |
| Betsy | With the Supreme Court hearing arguments regarding pregnancy resource centers early last December, have you been surprised at the Democrats being unwilling to even acknowledge that, that those are part of a safety net, that we need? |
| Alexandra DeSanctis | Honestly, I've been covering this issue for, I guess, about ten years now. And so I hate to say that I'm really not surprised. And I don't think it's because the politicians in particular have some kind of animus. I think they take their marching orders on this issue wholly from the Planned Parenthood's of the world and the rules of the world, and the messaging there is these places are evil. And where does that message come from? Well, they undercut the bottom line, right? If a woman goes through a pregnancy resource center, she's more likely than not going to go to an abortion clinic thereafter, that the odds are much lower. They threaten abortion clinics. And I think Democrats, they're not willing to they're not actually in favor of supporting choice. Right. If they were, of course, you would want women to have the option to keep their child. But the, you know, supposedly pro-choice movement actually is really just pro-abortion. Unfortunately. |
| Ashley | Well, we have just a few more minutes, but I wanted to pivot to a little bit of a different topic. One that's a bit more hopeful. You you wrote a really wonderful review in National Review of a book, by Wilfred McClay called land of Hope An Invitation to the Great American Story. And it really resonated with me because you wrote about how, your deepening of understanding of American history has, has helped you put into context a lot of the tunnel. And it has certainly been a very tumultuous time in America, especially in the last week or so. And, I, I'd love to read a quote that you had pulled out and highlighted in the article, where he writes, in times of change in danger when there is a quicksand of fear under men's reasoning, a sense of continuity with generations gone before can stretch like a lifeline across the scary present and get us past that idiot delusion of the exceptional. Now that blocks good thinking. And I feel like that's relevant to to our conversation about the life issue, because, you know, we can it's easy to feel despair about the issue. But tell us a little bit more about this book and, how it helped you to rethink your understanding of history. |
| Alexandra DeSanctis | Yeah, I'm glad you pulled out that quote, because that's that's the epigraph of the book. And as soon as I opened it and read that, I immediately thought, okay, I have to read this entire book, because that really speaks to me. And I. |
| Betsy | I'm going to read the book, too. |
| Alexandra DeSanctis | Yeah. Yes, you can, but I'm glad. Yeah. It's, I think we really need to be anchored in history to keep our heads on straight, I guess, to put it very simply. And, it's very easy to think we're in some kind of unusual moment where everything is is crazy and everything's going off the rails. And in reality, it's just a new version of the same thing. And it has really helped me, having read through that book, you know, of course I what's something I talk about in the pieces? Of course I learned history throughout all my years in school, and I never really felt like I it wasn't presented to me as a story with meaning, until I read that book. And I think all Americans really need to read it, especially, you know, adults who feel like they either forgot their history lessons or, you know, didn't enjoy it the first time around. To really situate yourself in the context of the American story and to kind of be at peace and the fact that this is just what it is to be human and it's a different flavor now, but it's always been something like this. |
| Betsy | Do you have any final words that you'd like to share about some of the ways that you think that the pro-life movement could reach out to the young generations about this, in this new landscape where there's just a pill through the mail, or even maybe come in a little bit on how IVF complicates this whole story. |
| Alexandra DeSanctis | Well, yeah, those are two, two big questions. I'll just touch very briefly on IVF and I, I didn't even mention this earlier. But of course the Trump administration has, has, you know, issued a full throated embrace of, of IVF, which is something the pro-life movement has always been opposed to because of how it treats, you know, embryonic human life. And so that's really discouraging. That tells me that a lot of people just think that's a lost issue, and we can just sort of move on. But, and I don't really have a political game plan for how we could do otherwise, but I think it speaks to just a general devaluation of, of human life in a sense that, well, if if we think human life is good, then we can just manufacture it. Or however we want to, as though, you know, human beings are ours to discard through abortion or to obtain through IVF if we want them. Human beings are not commodities. And so I think that's where the pro-life movement has to push. I think we have, kind of we have a sense in our hearts, all of us, that human beings are not commodities, that we, have meaning. Our lives have meaning and value and purpose, dignity and reaffirming that is really, really important, whether it's in the context of why sex outside marriage is not a good thing for people, or why IVF is actually not a solution, even for people who might desperately want children. And of course, that's good and understandable. It's all a unified case for the goodness of human life. It's not a no, don't do this or don't do that. It's a a positive vision of the human person that I think we have to get better at sharing. |
| Ashley | Well, certainly we're so grateful to you. You're really a leader out there. I love following you on Twitter. And, you're a very clear voice on this issue. And so we very much appreciate you and all your courage and your writing and all that you're doing to defend the truth about the human person and human dignity in the press. So to find out more about Alexandra and read her writings, make sure to visit National review.com and to pick up her book, Tearing Us Apart, and to learn more about the Catholic Association and find out everything that we do in radio, TV, print and online in our local communities. Visit the Catholic Association board. Alexandra, thanks so much for your time today. |
| Alexandra DeSanctis | Thank you. Bill. |