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Episode Description
This week Wall Street Journal columnist Bill McGurn joins us to discuss the heartbreaking sentencing of Hong Kong media entrepreneur and democracy advocate Jimmy Lai, a man McGurn calls a true “champion of freedom.” With Lai now facing a de facto life sentence, McGurn explains why President Trump may be Jimmy’s last hope for release and what diplomatic pressure could still be imposed. McGurn also reflects on Lai’s remarkable journey to the Catholic faith, including his baptism by Cardinal Zen days after Hong Kong’s handover to China.
Marking National Marriage Week, TCA Fellow Leigh Snead speaks with Ann Koshute, co-founder of Springs in the Desert, a Catholic ministry dedicated to accompanying couples struggling with infertility. Ann shares how the ministry provides emotional and spiritual support rooted in Christ, helping couples rediscover hope, fruitfulness, and marital unity amid profound suffering. They offer practical advice for couples navigating infertility, and for friends, family members, and clergy on how to walk alongside couples with compassion.
Msgr. Roger Landry joins us with joyful news of the upcoming beatification of Archbishop Fulton Sheen, sharing details about Sheen’s life, his profound impact on American Catholicism, and the miracle that paved the way for his beatification. From Life Is Worth Living to Three to Get Married, Sheen’s legacy as a communicator, missionary, and defender of the faith continues to inspire millions.
Catch the show every Saturday at 7amET/5pmET on EWTN radio!
And don’t forget to subscribe to TCA’s daily media roundup for smart Catholic news and commentary delivered straight to your inbox.
Bios
Bill McGurn is an American journalist, political writer, and conservative commentator. Known for his long association with The Wall Street Journal, he has served as chief editorial writer and member of the editorial board. He currently writes the weekly WSJ “Main Street” column. He previously served as chief speechwriter for President George W. Bush, crafting major addresses during events like the Iraq troop surge. After leaving the White House, he joined News Corporation and briefly served as editorial page editor of the New York Post. Prior, McGurn reported extensively overseas for Dow Jones publications. He is author of the book on Hong Kong, Perfidious Albion, and a monograph on terrorism, Terrorist or Freedom Fighter. He is a member of the Council on Foreign Relations, holds a BA in philosophy from Notre Dame and an MS in Communications from Boston University. He and his wife, Julie Hoffman, have three adopted daughters from China.
Ann Koshute is co-founder and Executive Director of Springs in the Desert, a Catholic ministry providing spiritual and emotional support and resources to couples navigating the challenges of infertility, miscarriage, and related grief. A Byzantine Catholic residing in Central Pennsylvania, Ann is a writer, speaker, and podcaster on issues of infertility as viewed within a Catholic framework, including ethical treatment, mental health aspects, finding hope, and witnessing to God’s plan for every marriage. She is a frequent speaker at conferences and retreats on the dignity of marriage, adult faith formation, and fruitfulness beyond biological children. She holds a Master of Theological Studies degree from the Pontifical John Paul II Institute for Studies on Marriage and Family at the Catholic University of America in Washington, D.C.
Monsignor Roger Landry is a priest of the Diocese of Fall River, Massachusetts. A graduate of Harvard and the Pontifical North American College in Rome, he served as Attaché to the Holy See’s Permanent Observer Mission to the UN in New York. In 2024, he was appointed National Director of the Pontifical Mission Societies in the USA by Pope Francis. He writes for numerous publications, speaks on radio and TV, and served as executive editor for the weekly newspaper of the Diocese of Fall River. He is the author of the book, Plan of Life: Habits to Help You Grow Closer to God, and leads pilgrimages to Rome, the Holy Land, and other sacred destinations. He was an on-site commentator for EWTN’s coverage of the 2013 papal conclave that elected Pope Francis. He is national chaplain for Catholic Voices USA and New York Chaplain for the Leonine Forum. Father Landry traversed the 1500-mile Eucharist Pilgrimage in 2024, which coincided with his 25th year in the priesthood.
The following transcript is machine generated.
Episode 356 Transcript
| Ashley | Welcome to conversations with consequences now on EWTN radio. I'm your host, Ashley McGuire. |
| Betsy | And I'm Betsy Fentress, and. |
| Ashley | We are grateful to have with us today a dear friend of the show, Bill McGurn. We all read him in the Wall Street Journal. And, Bill, you are in our prayers today, along with Jimmy Lai and the entire Lai family, as we have all heard the very depressing, but I guess expected news this week of Jimmy Lai's sentence in a Hong Concourt. Thank you for making time for us today, Bill. |
| Bill McGurn | Thank you. |
| Ashley | So, Bill, we've been following this, this trial. I've written about it. You've written more pieces than anyone could count about this. And this is kind of a day. We were all waiting for the sentencing of Jimmy Lai on trumped up charges. And what many people are calling a kangaroo court, his 20 year sentence. People have essentially called it basically a death sentence. Can you give us any hope that a deal can be brokered to bring Jimmy back to his family? |
| Bill McGurn | Yeah, I mean, that is the hope. For five years, we've all known Jimmy will never be free. No one China or Hong Kong can't let him go until his first sentence convicted. And they drew out the trial. So long. You know, he's been sitting jail all this time. And so even though the actual sentencing came as a kick in the teeth, none of it was unexpected. We knew this was going to happen. You know, like five years ago when he first got arrested. So in some senses, the work now just begins. Now we hope Trump has spoken favorably about Jimmy. I think he admires him and he's met Sebastian Lai. Jimmy Son was impressed, and he says he's going to raise it with XI Jinping. So that's our great hope right now. |
| Betsy | Have you been able to be in any kind of communication with Jimmy, either directly or through his family and his wife, Theresa? |
| Bill McGurn | Not directly. I was I used to write to him and used to get letters. But somewhere about two years ago, my letters stopped going through. So for that, since then, just rely on reports from people who've seen him and so forth. You know, what we exchange was never political. You know, to me has a lot of opinions on there. So the wife but it was more family to family and spiritual. |
| Ashley | You mentioned Trump and he's, definitely mentioned that he is following this case. We know he's going to Beijing in the spring. What hope is there that he could get something done? And if not him, who are some other world leaders like Pope Leo that potentially could be exerting pressure now that we have a sentence? |
| Bill McGurn | Well, back during the election, I think it was October, Trump was asked whether he'd get Jimmy Lai Lai out or raise his case. He said yes, it would be easy. Now is typical Trump overstatement about the easy part. But he did talk about that. He is not relenting in sort of bringing up his name. He mentioned them all the time. The family is immensely grateful for that because really, Trump is the only hope we saw. We had some hope that maybe when the British Prime minister went over there, they might make a deal because Jimmy is a full British citizen. But there was nothing, you know, Keir Starmer amounted to nothing. So Donald Trump is Jimmy Lai's only hope. And he doesn't, ma'am, he says, can push it. We just we don't know what XI Jinping thinks. So, we'll have to see where it goes. The best thing I think from China's point of view, things to remember from China's point of view, Jimmy Lai is just constant bad publicity for him. You know, he's nominated for the Nobel Prize. People are giving him awards left and right. Senators, the secretary of state all mentions the. It's a losing proposition for China to keep the 78 year old man behind bars because he always comes up. So I think Trump has a good case that let me take this problem off the table for you. And if they did it before the meeting with Trump, then you wouldn't have reporters asking you about Jimmy in press conferences. And so with which could be embarrassing for China. |
| Betsy | So you've called Jimmy a champion of freedom for people who are listening that kind of don't know the full backstory. Can you expound a little bit on this and why he is such a beacon for so many people all over the world? |
| Bill McGurn | Well, it covers several areas a lot. Jimmy's admirers, some admire that he's very free market. You know, in Hong Kong you would expect that the free market made Hong Kong, you know, it's it's the closest to, perfect capitalist society that we seen, you know, and it functions. And Jimmy learned a lot from that. He came to Hong Kong as a penniless kid, refugee by himself. And and then he became a billionaire. So he appreciates that. And he always used to say, Hong Kong is give me everything. I am. So a lot of what he does, he feels, is showing gratitude for the blessings in Hong Kong game. That's just on the economic side. On the political side, he's very pro-democracy, is admires in the, democracy camp. You know, he believes Hong Kong should run itself through democratic means, kind of the promise of 1984 joint declaration. But that's not realized then. He has admirers, who are mostly Christian and Catholic because, in 1997, the weak Jimmy was handed over, the handover. He became a Catholic and I was his godfather. He was, baptized at the cathedral by Cardinal Zheng, another great hero, of China. And, it was very emotional time. You know, there was a lot of doom and gloom over, over Hong Kong's future. And Jimmy wasn't, like, there, he thought, given to gloom and doom. He sees hope all the time. |
| Ashley | So, talking about Jimmy Lai's faith, we we actually had his daughter Claire on our show a few weeks ago. And she told us a lot about both the frail, the frail state of his health. But the the kind of strength of his his spiritual resolve. But she did mention that he's being denied access to the sacraments. Is that something that you still understand to be true? |
| Bill McGurn | Yes. I think everything is difficult for him. You know, they play games with it. So, he has he has trouble with that. He doesn't really complain about anything, but because his feeling is even in prison, I can practice my faith no matter what they do. And I think to watch him in prison rather than dwell on the things that he's deprived. What I'm struck by, maybe because I'm his godfather, is how this man has matured in his faith over the years. He's been in jail about five years, more than five years now. And when he went in, he had certain understanding of his faith. And now the depth of that understanding is just amazing to me, is you were watching, a saint being forged in the fire of suffering and not just Jimmy. I think people underestimate, the faith is a huge pillar of support for him. It's his primary support now that gives him hope. But the other support is flesh and blood. Is his wife, Theresa. And Jimmy would be the first to say. And she just quietly she's still, you know, trying to keep her family together during different continents, take care of be there for the visits that she can do with, Jimmy, her husband, she is a rock. My wife and a group of couple, couple of friends of, Theresa's. They're about 4 or 5. I think they, for the past five years have gathered on zoom every Monday, Wednesday and Friday to pray the Rosary. And that's going on, and it's going on six years now. It's really an extraordinary people, women. There's a one woman from France, you know, Theresa in Asia and a couple in America. It's really an extraordinary thing. |
| Betsy | That's really amazing. So you were in Hong Kong and that's how you met Jimmy. Can you tell us how you met? And were you part of his faith journey into the Catholic Church? |
| Bill McGurn | Well, he, we met because at the time in Hong Kong that I was there in the beginning, Hong Kong could be very cheap. You know, I could get this sweater on the street for maybe $1.50, right? But I couldn't go out looking for a blue sweater like this, and it was all hit or miss and piles of clothes. And just. If you got lucky. And at the other end, there were all the European, designer labels. So there was stuff for the rich and for the very poor, but there really wasn't anything for the middle class. We take it for granted in the United States, because so much of the economy is geared to the middle class, but there the, the middle class kind of, kind of forgotten. What do they want? They want quality, a good prices right in uniform. You want to go and you buy a shirt. You want the next shirt from Brooks Brothers, you want the next shirt you buy three years later to be the exact same. You don't want different design, different threads or something. And, Jimmy was one of the first entrepreneurs to realize that he opened a clothing chain called Giordano. If you think of, like Land's End or something, it's sold like casual wear, sportswear, mostly like polo shirts and shorts and stuff. The stores were very brightly lit, had very bright colored clothes, good quality at a low price. And that was revolutionary for Hong Kong. So that's he came out of that. We were doing a story on Giordano Cruz's. So you need no one had ever thought to do that for the middle class before. So we did a story. I didn't write it, a fellow named Mark Clifford, who is now a good friend. Jimmy's, and leads the committee, for free Hong Kong. He he wrote the story then. And after the story ran, the, the publisher, Gordon Crawford, sent me a handwritten note, and I read it. It said Jimmy claims to be the only man in Hong Kong to have read all of the angles. And now Gordon's handwriting is very spicy, so hard to read. So I said that may be true, but it's in some achievement. So, I went to Gordon and turned out he wasn't writing tech, he was writing angles. And that, wasn't writing the angles. He was writing High-Iq Friedrich like a big for for free market types. He's a real hero, right? Even more than, say, Milton Friedman for many people. And, when I saw that, that was incredible that he read Hayek and he's a big fan. So he bonded over kind of that then came became very clear. Jimmy in the Wall Street Journal editorial page were like totally aligned on freedom for Hong Kong, democracy, free markets and so forth. And we got to know them. And then of course, right before the handover, he converted and, and even that, you know, we, week or two weeks before the handover, we were, over his house and, I just with the permission of Theresa's wife, I decided to ask Jimmy if he want convert. And he said, no, I forget its reason, but you have to respect that. You know, I know you can't force it. When you asked me, was I involved? I was there, but I really think it's the Holy Spirit. And that's one thing I think you have to give up the vanity that you are converting him. It's him and the Holy Spirit. If there was any influence, it was Theresa. But, he read the Bible, he was talking to Cardinal Zen, and, he actually converted, became a Catholic a week after the, Hong Kong of return to China. |
| Ashley | Can you talk a little bit more about Theresa and both her role in his conversion and her role in sustaining him? You know, his daughter Claire, as we mentioned, has been outspoken. I've seen stories about his son Sebastian meeting with the Pope. But can you speak a little bit more about her role in his faith journey? And then in this difficult trial that he's been. |
| Bill McGurn | With their Chinese family and he's she's a wife and a good wife and a mother, and she takes those roles very seriously. She has three kids, Sebastian, Claire and Agustin. Agustin, freshman at Catholic. You in Washington. And they're all remarkable kids in their own way. And, Claire, I've known Claire since she was a baby. And I remember the first time, like, Claire was talking in English in front of me. She crawled up on Jimmy, into his lap, in his arms, and she crawled up and said, daddy, would you beat up Big brother for me? Sebastian was teasing her then he now we've greatly matured since then, and they are both kids. He can be proud of. And they love their father immensely. I thought Claire has an article. I think it's in unheard un online about Jimmy's faith and just mostly relaying in his words what he said. I thought she really captured her father did a magnificent job of his understanding of things. |
| Betsy | So his media company, you know, Apple Daily is is long shuttered. And I was in Hong Kong in 2014. I thought it was a marvelous city. But since then I don't I don't think I would want to go back. So much has happened. Is there any free speech left there? |
| Bill McGurn | Well, I, I haven't been there. So I think there's free speech for people. The government don't mind having free speech, but for other people, not so much. Look, the government's not dumb and they didn't just go after a voice or something. What they did, they arrested Jimmy. They confiscated this. A polite word for stole. Stole his newspaper without any court order. I mean, for an international finance center, I that just is mind boggling to me and shut down. So, you just have to do that to one guy. Everyone else gets the message, right? And I think so many people have been forced into exile, because of that. And I don't see any sign it's getting better. |
| Ashley | The thing that's so singular about Jimmy Lai that maybe a lot of people don't understand, although you did mention is that he is a British citizen. He could have left. He could have rolled up his money and left and lit a comfortable life and watched this all from afar. But instead he chose to stay and struggle and has never, walked away from that. What can people do? I mean, we have an audience of Catholics. We know prayer is essential, and I implore our listeners to continue praying for Jimmy Lai. But but what else can we do? Are there any other pressure points, that people who care about the fate of Jimmy Lai and what his fate represents, what what can people do? |
| Bill McGurn | Well, I think the first he mentioned prayer. I don't discount that because I think that's what keeps me going. And I think for me, as his friend and godfather, I am amazed and heartened by the prayers of thousands of people who don't know him and will never meet him. And yet they're praying. I get messages all the time, sometimes stopped in the streets saying, hey, I just want you to know I'm praying for Jimmy Lai. So you know, he's alone in that prison cell. They've even covered up the one window. It'll be easy to feel abandoned. I don't think Jimmy does feel abandoned. I think he doesn't know the extent of it. But the support. I think we have to encourage Donald Trump to try his best. You know, don't just go through the motions. Really. Press XI Jinping, use all your negotiating skills to get him out. And and again, I go back to it. Trump has a good argument that he be doing China favor getting this guy that's causing them such bad publicity and maybe an obstacle, something else. They want it down the line. He take them off the table by getting rid of them. There's also many other dissidents in China. But I think if they let Jimmy go, it becomes easier to make deals on the other people, not make them serve their full sentences and so forth. But right now, it's very brutal. And the other reason also is this is a Hong Kong initiative. This wasn't Beijing thinking of this Hong Kong decided to make Jimmy an issue. Well, now they've got him and they're stuck with them. I think she might might be grateful for the opportunity to get Jimmy Lai, off the table as an issue in any kind of domestic talks. And move on. That could be very attractive. |
| Ashley | Well, Bill, we know we can follow your writings in the Wall Street Journal, but are there any places that people who care about this, can look to follow, whether on social media or where can people learn more about Jimmy Lai? |
| Bill McGurn | Well, I think the Committee to Free Hong Kong, they have a, Twitter feed and so forth, and they publish a lot of, good things. I think also, the Hong Kong Free Press has ongoing coverage of what's going on. There's no shortage information. And what's really sounded to me five years ago, if you are a business leader, top American business leader, or, politician, you might have heard Jimmy Lai. It's amazing to me. Thanks to EWTN and radio shows like yours. How much Jimmy's name is now common? That a lot of people know him? I never would predict that five years ago. I would know there will always be a core of people pushing for him. But now he's becoming a household word and everyone understands what the game is, what happened to him, what's going to happen to him if something's not done. |
| Ashley | Well, we certainly will never stop saying his name. So Bill, thank you so much for your time updating us about this important case and telling us more about Jimmy Lai. Thank you Bill. |
| Bill McGurn | Thank you Ashley. |
| Betsy | Welcome back to conversations with consequences where I am joined by TCA chaplain man senior Roger Landry, who is also the director for the Pontifical Mission Societies here in the United States. Monsignor, there is some very big news about a new to be beatification announcement. Tell us all about it. |
| Msgr Landry | It was early this week. On Monday, the diocese Peoria, which is the posture leader of the cause of the most famous American Catholic of all time up until Pope Leo the 14th, Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen, that he will be beatified later this year. No announcement was made in terms of exactly what that date would be. The Vatican hasn't confirmed the date yet. There are lots of moving parts to that, but at least the hope is that he'll be beatified in September, probably around his priestly anniversary, which was September 20th, 1919. And so I would look for September 19th or September 26th, probably as Saturday, late September as the hopeful time for his beatification. But Fulton J. Sheen, among all the rest of the things that he did as an incredible teacher at the Catholic University of America, as the person who shows us how to use new media in order to spread the faith. As a great radio figure. In the early days of radio with the Catholic Hour for over two decades, on national radio, and then his Life is Worth Living television series that used to draw 30 million Americans every week, Catholics and non-Catholics, both to watch him talk about the ordinary things that unite people all across, our culture and the types of things we need to oppose, like communism and various of the other sort of his philosophical ideology that he's going to be raised to the altar is finally this year and the 250th anniversary of the United States of America. Sheen loved our country. He loved our faith. He was the person who overcame decades of anti-Catholic prejudice because if he was what Catholics really are, then why should anybody fear them? He really made possible, for example, the election of the first Catholic president, John F Kennedy, who would have never been elected had he not torn down those walls of anti-Catholic bigotry by showing just the beauty of a Catholic life in its fullness? And so how exciting it is that we're going to have Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen raised to the altars. |
| Betsy | So tell us about some of the miracles that led to this process. |
| Msgr Landry | So you need one official miracle in order to be approved. And that was approved by the Vatican, in about, seven years ago. At this point where there was a young child born who stopped breathing for 61 minutes, and the family immediately invoked, Archbishop Sheen. And Archbishop Sheen was the one through whom God work that incredible miracle. There was no way a child should survive that type of anoxic state. Not to mention if for some almost quasi miraculous reason, the child did without brain damage, but the child's perfect and growing on up, and we pray he's going to be there for the beatification. And so that was the one that was chosen for his beatification and approved by the Vatican. Others have, of course occurred. Many are praying regularly through his intercession. And so for his canonization, there's always a need for a new miracle after the announcement of the beatification. And so it's a time for all of us to be praying for the miracles we know we need or people we know need through the intercession of Fulton J. Sheen. Because the days where the announcements made the day of the beatification, what we've seen with other saints is those are days in which God is listening in a particular way to prayers made through their intercession. And so I'd encourage people to launch out during this week in which Sheen was, announced to be beatified, asking for those prayers that they have been turning to the Lord with humble supplication. |
| Betsy | You know, I love his book three to Get Married. And I was just amazed when I read it, and I reread it, how wise he was. For a person who obviously has never been married, he really had an insight into the dynamics of the male female relationship and, really just had a modern but very Catholic take on women and men and the whole dynamic about married, excuse me, the whole dynamic about money and time that people need alone and together. And I also love his book, this is the Mass. |
| Msgr Landry | Sheen was very down to earth growing up in El Paso, Illinois, and then Peoria. He grew up in a very good family, a family that talked to family, that shared. He had an extraordinarily rich, assortment of friends who would bring all things to him. And priests to Saint John Paul. The second would say, after Sheen, though we don't have primary experience with a lot of the issues of marriage, we do have about the greatest second hand experience anybody could encounter, because so many people are coming to us with their struggles and confession, coming to get guidance, asking us, to help them in some of the biggest moments of their life. When unemployment is there are communications issues, you name it. Priests have great second hand experience, and when you're as smart as Fulton J. Sheen is, you would synthesize that and remember it and link it to some of the deeper foundations about who we are made in God's image and likeness, in the way the devil always attacks us. And so three to Get Married is an extraordinary book. This is the mass sheen used to regularly try to bring people into the heart of our Catholic faith, which is meeting Jesus in the Eucharist. He's the greatest preacher of all time about the importance of a Eucharistic holy hour, which he made each day for all 60 years of his priesthood. His his great books on, Jesus, for example, life of is, I think, an incredible classic, not to mention his autobiography, treasure in Clay, which he wrote before he was dying in 1979, likewise shows not just his love for the Eucharist, but his love for the missions. He was my predecessor as the national director of the Mission Society for 16 years. He's raised more money for the mission than any American in history. He, taught about the missions and how each of us is called to have a missionary identity and spirituality flowing from our baptism more effectively than anyone. People ask me a lot what's it like to be Fulton J. Sheen successor? And I've often said, you know, I'm not intimidated by it. I am inspired by it because I'm able to use his playbook. But now that he's going to be pronounced, hopefully that will put a lot more pressure on me in order to be like a chip off the old missionary block. |
| Betsy | Thank you, Monsignor Landry, for all this great news about great American Catholics. |
| Msgr Landry | Awesome, Betsy. God bless. |
| Leigh | Welcome to conversations with consequences. Now on EWTN radio. This is your host, Lee Sneed. I'm so happy to have my friend and to shoot here today from springs in the desert. She's the executive director and co-founder of this wonderful infertility ministry. And I'm just so glad she's helping thousands of couples and individuals across the country. And I'm just so glad to have you here today with us. |
| Ann Koshute | And I'm so happy to be with you today. |
| Leigh | So why don't you just share with our audience what exactly is springs in the desert? |
| Ann Koshute | Yeah. So Springs in the desert is a Catholic ministry of accompaniment, and we offer emotional and spiritual support for those who are struggling with infertility and loss. Pregnancy loss, specifically within the context of the experience of infertility. So we're not strictly sort of a grief ministry for, for miscarriage. But for so many of the people who come to us, miscarriage is a part of their path of infertility. And I think it's important, to mention something that really distinguishes us, perhaps from other ministries. And I think something that people are a bit surprised about when I share it, and that is that our ministry focuses on Christ, not on conception. So I'll get asked very often. Oh, do you talk about Nabarro technology, for example, or, you know, refer to doctors or things like that? And we don't not because those things are not great, but because when you are going through this experience, whether you're actively trying to conceive or you're somewhere else down the line on that path, it's very stressful. It's very isolating. There's so many emotions. I'm sure we'll we'll get into some of that. And so we want to be that place where you can kind of jump off that hamster wheel for a little while and, and just be and be with other people who are on similar paths to be encouraged, to be uplifted and also just to be seen and acknowledged for what this cross really means. |
| Leigh | Sure. And yeah, because we know there are lots of wonderful organizations that can connect you with doctors and teach you the great model and talk about those kind of options. But this is a particular ministry for this kind of special suffering and offering that community. And you and I both I mean, this is how we met. We were, I think, our first introduction to each other. We were both in our Sunday Visitor article quoted, I think, about infertility years ago. And then I just couldn't believe that I had never heard of this before. And maybe because I was older and I was sort of out of the infertility game, although still a little myself. But when I found that, I just thought, oh, thank you, Lord Jesus, for and like, this is such a beautiful. |
| Ashley | Beautiful. |
| Leigh | Ministry and it's so much help to couples who don't know where to turn to, priests who don't know where to turn for help. To help these couples tell us some of the tools that springs some desert has on its chest that help people get through this. |
| Ann Koshute | Yeah. I mean, I always tell people the first place to go is the website Springs in the desert.org. And so there's a lot of great stuff there. So there's the blog and the podcast. This is where you can hear from people who are on this path and you can hear their real stories, and it's a great way for people to connect especially it's kind of a low risk way for for people to, to begin to explore this kind of support because, you know, they're not having to come out in front of a group or even be part of a retreat. |
| Leigh | But get out of your pajamas, even. Right. It's passive. |
| Ann Koshute | Yeah. Comfortable. Exactly. I don't know about you, but when when I was women, when we were in the thick of it and we were really trying. I mean, you know, it'd be like the middle of the night. And there I am under the covers, you know, googling, like, everything and anything. So this is maybe this is, a good use of the internet that isn't sucking you more into that rabbit hole of what else can I do, but is really offering some, some encouragement, some affirmation. And then we have a lot of resources for clergy, for family and friends, because so often, whether it's our pastor or it's our mom and dad or other people who are close to us, they kind of don't know, like what to do, what to say, right? |
| Leigh | All the time. |
| Ann Koshute | And very often they go straight for the solution. Why don't you try this? Do that. My neighbors sisters cousin did this and then they got pregnant. And then you're like, oh man. So then that. So then you can start to spin, right? And you're and you either think, oh my gosh, then I have to go and follow like that exact ritual and then it'll happen. |
| Leigh | Yeah. You get superstitious. |
| Ann Koshute | You get superstitious. Exactly. Even around prayer or, you know, you go the other direction and you say, gosh, no matter what I do, it's not happening. What's wrong with me? Why doesn't God like me? Am I being punished? I mean, you can just spiral in in so many directions. Then, you know, we have the podcast, we have retreats, we have virtual and in-person small groups and, and, you know, other opportunities to, to kind of get together with people who are on a similar path. And we're always just developing new resources, just new ways to reach people and, and offer them just that friendship. It's it can be so, so isolating. |
| Leigh | Absolutely, absolutely. And I think it's really it's good that I think what I've seen anyway, it's a shameless self plug. I have a new book out on infertility and it's featured in it's called Infertile but Fruitful Finding Fulfillment When You Can't conceive. And a lot of people have said things like, oh, I want to read that because my sister's experiencing that. My daughter in law is experiencing that, and I don't know how to talk to her. And so I think by right, like sharing these stories, sharing our information, becoming a community, it becomes easier for everyone to talk about it, because people who care about those who are in a season of infertility, they also they don't want to say the wrong thing, right? They want to be helpful. And, reminds me of that old book, Mars. Venus. You know, where like Mars, everyone's but, you know, the problem solver. And they just, you know, you just want someone to listen. And it's just so hard to navigate that. And I think even starting with other people's stories makes it easier then to relate to your own loved ones a gentler way. |
| Ann Koshute | Yeah, I mean, that was definitely my experience. So I, I should say that this ministry, we did not set out to found a ministry. I certainly did not. I was just in the middle of, you know, my own struggle along with my husband and my co-founder, Kimberly Henkel and I, we we just really started this out of necessity because you know, we were just not getting the kind of support or acknowledgment like, I thought I was alone. I thought if I felt angry or jealous or I was, you know, feeling despairing that that was just me and there was something wrong with me. I'm a bad Catholic, you know. I'm not strong enough. And then when she began sharing similar things, I was like, oh, okay, maybe it isn't just me. And then when we started the ministry and began to get feedback from people, it was like, wow, like, this really is something this is happening and, you know, the feedback we were getting then and that we get now is that, wow, you you are saying things that I've been feeling. I thought that I was alone, I thought that there was something wrong with me, that that I was different and just that fact in itself. Like just being able to hear, as you said, other people's stories and experiences, you already feel less alone because, gosh, this experiences, it feels like so other rising. Right? Like everybody is out there and you're sort of trapped in this box just watching everybody live their best life, which is also not true. Right, exactly. But yeah, hearing hearing from other people and being able to talk with other people, gosh, it makes all the difference in the world. |
| Leigh | Oh yeah. And there's a weird dichotomy there too, because, you know, when you're going through it, it's about the most private part of your life. Yeah. So you do keep things private. You also don't I mean, for me, anyway, I always felt like if I just keep quiet about all this, it'll be over and then I never have to talk about it again. I never have to think about this infertile time. But, you know, again. And so you keep it private. But then you also keep private those darker feelings, and you start to feel like you're the only one that feels that way. And you start to feel shame, which then also makes you stay away from other people because you don't want them to know maybe how bad you are or bad you feel, you know, so it just compounds itself. And that's why this is so important. How, do you know, I keep your head out? How many, in person, like in real life? Parish groups that you guys have. |
| Ann Koshute | You can go to the website to see where everything is. But I think right now we have about 5 or 6, and, our small groups coordinator, Katie, she is always getting more inquiries about starting up a small group in, in a parish or in a diocese. And, you know, we do a formation with the small group leaders. We we talk with people who are interested because, you know, we want to make sure that they are in a good place to receive the stories and, and the suffering and all the challenges. That does not mean that you have to be some like super woman. I'm all healed up and nothing ever bothers me. So so no one has to feel like they have to have reached a certain level, but we just want to talk and make sure, hey, this this is going to be a lot, you know? Are you feeling in a good place if you just had a diagnosis last week or you suffered a loss recently, may not be the time for you to start, you know, ministering in that way, but. |
| Leigh | That that care alone is a beautiful ministry to that person. |
| Ann Koshute | Absolutely, absolutely. And you know what I have shown what our whole team has found is that in the process of ministering, we are ministered to. I mean, my husband and I will be married 15 years in June. So we've been going through this that whole time. I'm now in menopause. So I'm, I'm past it, which, by the way, that brings its own kind of grief along with it. Right. But I still get those twinges, you know, they're not as often they're they're not as severe. But, you know, when I get that pregnancy announcement or at a random time when I see a baby, you know, sometimes I'm like, oh, that baby's so cute. And then other times it's like, oh, it's the thorn again, you know? So in, in being able to do this ministry, I have just experienced so much healing and continue to experience that healing. And that is one of the fruits. And I can only say this because I'm this far along, but it's one of the gifts that I have found in infertility and trust me, 15 years ago, probably 2 or 3 years ago, I could not have put those two words infertility and gifts together. So if there's anyone listening and you're hearing that and going, what? You're crazy. Are you kidding me? This is like the worst cross you could ever have. 100%. I agree with you. It's okay if you can't hear that or if that's not your experience. But God can do really amazing things through every challenge, every trial, every cross. And that includes this one. If you're not there yet, it's okay. |
| Leigh | Yeah. And let's talk a little bit about that universal call to fruitfulness that we all have. And we you and I have talked a lot about this, but, you know, I think that we as a church, as a human Western culture, like we just think about fruit, baby. Yeah. You know, and there's so much more, so much more that we have to offer. And so let's talk about, let's talk about that call to fruitfulness, what that can mean, what your own personal experience is, what fruits it's born for you. Let's hear it. |
| Ann Koshute | Yeah. I mean, I really do think that every single person is called to be fruitful, to give life. Put it whatever way you want to be creative. I mean, it's a cooperation with God and how amazing that gift is, right? Like from the very beginning when he tells Adam and Eve, you know, be fruitful and multiply, cultivate this garden, name these animals, you know, essentially you're a stand in for me and I'm going to share my kingship and creative power with you. I mean, that's that's just incredible. And children are an obvious manifestation of that fruitfulness, of the marital embrace of the love of husband and wife. But we like to say that even if you have children, there's not like a punch card, right? Like, okay, you know, I, I reached my quota, exactly. We're all called to give life doesn't matter. Your age doesn't matter. Your state in life if you're married, if you're single, if you're a priest or religious. I think the little itty bitty babies give life to us because they call forth love and and a desire to care for someone. They take us out of ourselves. The old person, the you know, my dad, who was in hospice last year, I mean, he gave so much life to not only my brother and me, but to his caregivers because he called forth from them, you know, this, this fulfillment of a duty to care for and love another person. So I think that's important to see that that that call is universal. And there are so many ways that it can be manifested for me and for many people in our community. That sort of radical availability is a way of fruitfulness. So my husband and listen, I don't knock big families. He's number 16. So, you know, thank God for that, for that big family. Right. But he's the youngest. So he's got a lot of siblings who are older than him with with, some unmarried, with health challenges at the drop of a hat, he's able to go and help take somebody to a doctor's appointment or just just be there. Same for me. When my dad was sick, you know, I was able to go. And it's not a matter of. Keith has to ask my permission, or I ask his permission. Right. It's like a natural fruit of the love and the trust. And that partnership that that we have between us. And that fruitfulness can manifest in many ways being a friend, being a mentor, a teacher, even that spiritual motherhood and fatherhood that we have with our peers or with people who are older than us, that fruitfulness does not have to be limited to helping out with the kids in the parish. Right. Exactly. It is multi-dimensional. And I think that's really, honestly very exciting. |
| Leigh | Yeah, it really is. It really is. Because you think too like there are probably women who have spent a good deal of their 20s, 30s, maybe even 40s having children, and then that part of their life comes to an end and they could have like a sort of a crisis, like, now what am I supposed to do? You know, you know, if they didn't feel like they had a check up box, but that's if that's the only conception of their fruitfulness, their capacity for fruitfulness. It's going to be a real a real challenge and a certain grieving about that too. Well, can you tell us a little bit? We don't have too much time, but how have the works of, John Paul the Second informed your thoughts about springs and desert and the work that you guys do? |
| Ann Koshute | I mean, Saint John Paul, too is all over this ministry, partly because Kimberly and I are graduates of the GP2 Institute, and so I think that formation has really been key in how we have structured the ministry, but also in our approach, John Paul, to so valued personal experience. And so I think that has allowed us to to take our personal experiences and through that, to be able to minister, to the people that come to us, we are not counselors, we're not medical professionals. We don't claim to be experts, really, in anything but but our own suffering and our own relationship with with the Lord and how he has been with us in our marriages. And so I'm really grateful for, for that information. And little could I have understood when I was hearing all the beauty of marriage and and, everything that we learned at the institute, what it would mean for me when I came up against this cross and the suffering. It's hard. So I don't want to sugarcoat it and say, you know, oh, you just throw all your trust in the Lord and it's all going to be great. You know it. It takes work and and it takes, prayerful relationship with God. But there is just so much unexpected beauty that can come out of it. |
| Leigh | I think that's right. And I think it's good to, for season vets like you and me to acknowledge the fact that maybe these messages would have been harder for ourselves to hear to, you know. Yeah. So many years ago. But that there hopefully, hopefully will provide hope to those that are sort of in that right now. Well, let's just talk one more thing about how, what are some just like some tips. Let's say you're someone's listening. They're in a season of infertility. They're still really hopeful, but they're trying and they're getting, you know, really just like, disappointed month after month and it's starting to affect their marriage. What are some easy ways that you can like kind of keep that keep that going. |
| Ann Koshute | So I think get plugged into community because like I said before, this can be so isolating. You can feel like, you know, you're just so different from everyone else and no one can understand. Come to springs in the desert, get plugged into our community, nurture your marriage as best you can. Your marriage is number one. Your marriage is good. It's holy. It's a witness to the world and to the church. So nurture the marriage. If your grief and these emotions are getting to be too much, if it's too overwhelming, find a good counselor. You know, find a good spiritual director. You can come to Father Paul, who is our spiritual father. He does spiritual direction all over the country. But get that help. Sometimes you need somebody kind of objective on the outside to to help you through that. And pray. You know, sometimes it's really hard to pray, if you need to shout and stomp and have a little toddler tantrum in front of God, do it because I think the thing he does not want is for you to cut him off. |
| Leigh | That's right. |
| Ann Koshute | He's a big god. He can take it, let it out and I think if you keep that line of communication open, you're going to begin to see a change within yourself. Doesn't mean everything's going to be solved. But but that grace is really going to begin to help you and to help your marriage. |
| Leigh | Yeah, that's really great, because, you know, your marriage is not less than. No, it is. It's perfect and beautiful. You are those things. Two God loves you today, right now as you are. And there's no there's no need to shut him out. Well, thank you so much for your time today and to learn more about and to shoot in her amazing ministry, please visit Springs in the desert.org. Learn more about the work of the Catholic Association at the Catholic Association Board to follow everything we do and radio, TV, print, online and in our local communities. Thank you. In. |
| Ashley | Welcome back to conversations with consequences on EWTN radio. I'm your host, Ashley McGuire, and I'm joined by my other host, Betsy Fentress. So, Betsy, we've had some very interesting, exciting news this week of the beatification of Fulton Sheen. And this was something that was in the works, but he hit a few hiccups back in 2019. So now it's on the books, it's moving forward. And what a beloved man. And also what a perfect man to talk about in light of national Marriage Week, because he certainly was someone with a huge audience. I think some 30 million people tuned in. But he wrote a lot about marriage. Let's see. Do you have some highlights or some of his favorite sayings or thoughts on marriage? |
| Betsy | Well, I love his book three to Get Married, and I think it's still highly quoted and highly read because of all the wisdom in it. And obviously it's the third person in the marriage is God, and there's so many quotable quotes. But here's a good one how can one love self without being selfish? How can one love others without losing self? The answer is by both loving self and neighbor in God. It is his love that makes us love both self and neighbor rightly. He's just. What's really interesting is he understands marriage without ever having been in a marriage. And the book is full of all kinds of practical wisdom, whether it's about finances or, you know, the need for personal space or how men and women are wired differently, I just highly, highly recommend it. |
| Ashley | And it's so interesting because it's a common misperception that people have that priests don't have insights into marriage because they were never married before. And it's totally untrue. And what little I've read of Fulton Sheen. I also agree, I think one of the things he was really known for, from right, was being practical. I think that's part of what made him resonate so well in the media is this he spoke directly, he spoke clearly, he spoke very bluntly. And that's really needed, especially in a time, an era of confusion and maybe, you know, as you say, he's still quoted his his insights are needed now really more than ever. But see, you or someone who's been married for 40 years and you also have been involved in marriage prep, what sorts of practical, you know, in the spirit of Fulton Sheen, do you have a few nuggets of wisdom and, you know, maybe some of your own and any of you've gleaned from Fulton Sheen? |
| Betsy | Well, one of the things that we do in the marriage preparation in our parish is that the couples get inventories and they answer the questions, and then they do it separately, and then we get their answers together. And then the it's a computer generated response for not computer generated. But when we go to talk with the couples, there is church teaching that's in the booklet related to the question. And it's really fascinating how some couples are are really together on their answers. They're supposed to be honest. And we we said, you know, this is not a pass fail kind of a situation, but our job is to get the two of you to talk, especially when your answers are different. So we say, you said this and you said this. Do you wanted to explain to each other why you said it? And sometimes when it's a more intimate question, we say, we'd like you to go home and talk about this. You don't have to share what you said, that maybe the other person finds upsetting. But one of the big nuggets that I always say is to not base a mortgage on two people. If you want to stay home with your children, are you think you might want to stay home with your children? And it's something that most people don't really realize that that that ends up being a determining factor of a lot of things down the road, right? |
| Ashley | No. It's funny, I remember taking that test myself some 16 years ago, and, the priest gave us great advice. He said, take the test. And then, you know, you do. You do the review with whoever's preparing you. But then he said, go out that evening on a date and have a fun try to make it lighthearted, serious, but lighthearted conversation. |
| Betsy | Great idea. |
| Ashley | And I still remember that date. There was a lot of talk about, but no, that's great. The church is so wonderful in how thorough it is about marriage preparation, which, as we know is is really important. It's really important to lay a good foundation. So. |
| Betsy | Well, let me give you one more final quote. |
| Ashley | On Fulton. |
| Betsy | Sheen. In sex, the male adores the female. In love the man and woman together adore God. And that that is what three to Get Married is all about. |
| Ashley | That's beautiful. Thanks so much, Betsy. And what fun talking about such a great saint. |