Ep. 363 Father Patrick van der Vorst: Holy Week Thru Christian Art & Msgr. Roger Landry Talks Triduum

Conversations with Consequences

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Episode Description

Father Patrick van der Vorst joins from Westminster Cathedral to reflect on the power of Christian art during this sacred season. A former Sotheby’s specialist turned Catholic priest, Fr. Patrick discusses how the works of Fra Angelico, Michelangelo, and other legendary artists help us contemplate the Passion in a vivid and prayerful way. He shares the inspiration behind his popular Christian Art apostolate and his recent Holy Week project, which uses art and visual meditation to help believers pray through the final days of Christ’s earthly life.

Filmmaker John Scheinfeld discusses his new documentary being released this weekend, Baseball Beyond Belief, which explores the surprising and powerful intersection of baseball and faith. Based on the bestselling book, Baseball as a Road to God, the film examines how the rituals, sacred spaces, community, and even “miracles” of baseball mirror our spiritual life. From Opening Day to the World Series, Scheinfeld reflects on why America’s pastime continues to serve as a source of meaning and connection for so many families.

Monsignor Roger Landry shares how we as Catholics can enrich our spiritual lives during this last week of Lent and prepare our hearts for the Sacred Triduum—reflecting why Holy Thursday, Good Friday, and the Easter Vigil are the most important liturgies of the year. He reminds us that Holy Week is not simply meant to be observed from a distance, but fully entered into so the Lord’s Passion may truly make us holy.

Catch the show every Saturday at 7amET/5pmET on EWTN radio!

Bios

Father Patrick van der Vorst is a Roman Catholic priest of the Diocese of Westminster in London. After earning a law degree from the Catholic University of Leuven, he moved to the UK in 1995 and built a distinguished 25-year career in the art world, rising to Director at Sotheby’s Europe. He later founded the highly successful ValueMyStuff and St. George Valuations, and appeared as a winner on BBC’s Dragons’ Den. In a profound vocational shift, he left business behind and founded the popular Christian.Art website and daily newsletter, which reaches over 130,000 readers by blending sacred art with Gospel reflections. He entered seminary at the Pontifical Beda College in Rome in 2019, and was ordained a priest in June of 2023. He currently serves as Precentor and Prefect of the Sacristy at Westminster Cathedral, where he continues to minister while drawing on his deep love of art and faith.

John Scheinfeld is a critically acclaimed documentary filmmaker, an Emmy, Grammy, and two time Writers Guild nominee, with work ranging from pop culture to politics, sports and religion. He has many film credits to his name presenting documentary work with individuals of wide notoriety, including Bob Hope, Gary Marshall, Herb Alpert, Sergio Mendes, John Coltrane, John Lennon, and many others. Scheinfeld has also written, produced, or directed projects about pop culture legends including the Bee Gees, Nat ‘King’ Cole, Bing Crosby, Dean Martin, the Marx Brothers, Frank Sinatra and more. His current film, Baseball: Beyond Belief, an inspirational account exploring the intersection of faith and the sport, will be released in late March. Scheinfeld received a B.A. in Communications and Sociology from Oberlin College and holds an M.F.A. in Radio/Television/Film from Northwestern University.

Monsignor Roger Landry is a priest of the Diocese of Fall River, Massachusetts. A graduate of Harvard and the Pontifical North American College in Rome, he served as Attaché to the Holy See’s Permanent Observer Mission to the UN in New York. In 2024, he was appointed National Director of the Pontifical Mission Societies in the USA by Pope Francis. He writes for numerous publications, speaks on radio and TV, and served as executive editor for the weekly newspaper of the Diocese of Fall River. He is the author of the book, Plan of Life: Habits to Help You Grow Closer to God, and leads pilgrimages to Rome, the Holy Land, and other sacred destinations. He was an on-site commentator for EWTN’s coverage of the 2013 papal conclave that elected Pope Francis. He is national chaplain for Catholic Voices USA and New York Chaplain for the Leonine Forum. Father Landry traversed the 1500-mile Eucharist Pilgrimage in 2024, which coincided with his 25th year in the priesthood.

The following transcript is machine generated.

Episode 363 Transcript

Betsy	Welcome back to conversations with consequences here on EWTN radio. I'm your host, Betty Fentress, and I am delighted to have with us today a wonderful priest with a fascinating story and a tremendous eye when it comes to Christian art. Father Patrick van der Haus he worked with Sotheby's auction house in Europe for 15 years before being ordained to the priesthood, where he was a specialist in 18th century French furniture. More recently, he has started Christian art, where you can get a picture of the day's gospel or I should say, an artwork of some kind and a reflection from father. What a wonderful time to consider how art speaks to us, especially during Holy Week. And so, father, you come to us from Westminster Cathedral in London, where you are anchored, and tell us a little bit about how you ended up going from Sotheby's to Westminster Cathedral.
Fr. Patrick Van Der Vorst	Well, it's, I always wanted to work in, in the art world, so I grew up in Belgium, and when I was 23, I wanted to work for one of the big London auction houses. So in 1995, I moved to London, and I got a job at Sotheby's. And so I worked there for, nearly 20 years. As you said, very kindly in the introduction, as a, as a, as a furniture expert and then overseeing the furniture division, for Europe. And then during that time, but already ever since being a young boy, this attraction towards the priesthood was, was, was always there. But I thought I could keep it sort of to one side by throwing myself in the art world, and which is a wonderful world to work in. And I thought that would get rid of the itch that I had to maybe one day become a priest. But God has other plans, and he's very persistent. So in my mid-forties, then, I applied to the Diocese of Westminster, and, and then the cardinal, Cardinal Vincent Nicholson, kindly accepted me and trained me to once the priesthood.
Betsy	So I can't wait to talk about all the various facets of how art is playing a role in your priesthood, but most recently, with Holy Week, you produced a series called A Tableau Vivant. Could you tell us about that series, where you bring each station to life with living art and how this came to be?
Fr. Patrick Van Der Vorst	Yes. So we, we put out the video, and it's it's it's now has over 1 million views and so very much the idea behind the video is that it's a video for people to pray to stations with. So it's not me explaining, an artwork, depicting the stations. No, it's very much, with the idea of mind that you sit in front of your computer or laptop, take half an hour and pray to stations. And so the way we've done it is that we work together with, a theater company here in England called Winter Winterhold who do the passion play on Trafalgar Square. So in this very, sort of highly secularized setting of a square here in central London, there is this beautiful Christian and Catholic witness of performing the passion play, always, ad ad at the at Easter and on Good Friday, in particular. And so we worked together with them for them to depict the 14 stations of the cross, and we tied it together with a very beautiful French 1920s silent film, in black and white, that depicts the life of, of, of Jesus. And when you watch the video, it's quite extraordinary how they even did the special effects, say, of Jesus walking on, on water and performing some of the miracles. And so, so it's a blend of, this ancient film of the 1920s with modern videography, of the Winter Shawl Theater Company, and then me sort of, offering a reflection on each of the stations.
Betsy	I did watch it. It's absolutely stunning. And what a a unique and innovative way to draw people in. So when you were at Sothebys and even when you were at the priest, I'm sorry, when you were at Sotheby's and when you were in seminary in Rome, were you using art as part of the way that you prayed?
Fr. Patrick Van Der Vorst	Yes, because when I started, I set up Christian art when I was in seminary. And in a way, for me, it was to hold on to something of the old life. Yes. And when I look at my writings so of, say, six years ago when I started seminary 6 or 7 years ago, the, the, the it was more heavily leaning towards the art than, say, towards the spiritual. And now that has shifted as I've made my way through seminary and then was ordained to the priesthood nearly three years ago. Now the, the it's much more about sort of the spiritual side of things and yes, bringing the art into. But it's slightly shifted. And art for me has always been a wonderful vehicle to bring me closer to God. And I think that's why as a church as well, we build these magnificent churches, because they induce to prayer.
Betsy	Well, I think some of us don't realize or forget our history where when you go to Florence or Rome especially, and you see all these cathedrals and basilicas back then, it's not like everybody had a private prayer book where that could aid in their prayer. Sometimes the only aids they had were visual. Is is that correct? Can you talk about that?
Fr. Patrick Van Der Vorst	Yes. It's true. I mean, most most people say if we talk, for example, about the medieval cathedrals that were built, here in Europe, most people could not read or write. So one of the best ways for the church to convey, the beauty of God was through and a beautiful liturgy and also depicting the life of the Old Testament and the life of Jesus onto its walls, its tapestries, paintings, sculptures. So it was there. Yes, on one side, to educate, but also on, on the other side, to, to to really make visible the invisible. And that is another is very important that that also God through through Jesus. But where Jesus is the invisible, the visible made so by God sending his son into the world, the invisible God suddenly becomes visible. And therefore we as a church can use the arts. The visible, in order to connect with the invisible.
Betsy	So you talk a lot about beauty in your videos are so many really stunning videos that you have online. And I know that John Paul, the second wrote a letter to artists, but is there a lot of of church writings about the importance of beauty, because you feel that that really needs to be put front and central in this sort of apostolate that you have?
Fr. Patrick Van Der Vorst	I think we haven't done enough, in the last 40 or 50 years. As a church, I think, we should have maybe I've looked too much upon art as being. Oh, well, it's a nice thing to have, but there are other priorities now, and I don't think that's the case. I think, beauty is very much something that we that that are one of our most powerful tools we have in our arsenal as a church. I, we should use it. It doesn't necessarily mean that we have to start commissioning new artworks and new artists. But just even just to reuse, like I do on the, on the website, just to reuse all of the artwork, because most of people will not have seen most of the things that I show on the website. And it's, and it's very interesting because it was a very, beautiful document that was issued at the Vatican Council. Actually the very first document sacrosanct, Concilium, which talks about the beauty of the liturgy, the beauty of music. And there it says, for example, that seminarians should be trained in the arts and in beauty. And it seems that sort of after that, after the Second Vatican Council, I don't know. We've lost our way a bit. I think with the arts.
Betsy	We're going we're moving through Holy Week. Father Lazarus's sister Mary performs quite an act by pouring perfume on Jesus's feet. And instead of showing a painting, you instead show a perfume jar for the first century. Why did you pick a perfume jar instead of a painting?
Fr. Patrick Van Der Vorst	Because I think the paintings at the end of the day, is always a personal interpretation of the artists towards a gospel story, which is wonderful. And that's when art is is really at its best. But at the same time, it's very important when we read the Gospels that actually all of that actually happens. These are not just nice stories from 2000 years ago. So when we then read that Jesus's feet are being anointed with with oils, with very precious perfume, then I think it's important to explain them to people. What this perfume was. What this perfume was made of, what the materials are use at the time and what the vessels wear, that we're containing the perfumes. And I think our readers, I mean, we've got nearly 200,000 daily readers now. They love hearing, that actually this kind of, perfume bottle that Mary was holding would have looked so the more or less like what we're showing that on the website.
Betsy	In addition to that, some of the other non painting art pieces that you show, are drawings from the catacombs. Can you talk a little bit about those?
Fr. Patrick Van Der Vorst	Yes. I mean oh like I would show paintings from the catacombs every day if I want to see. It's just, the, some of the most beautiful, illustrations of, of early Christian art. Of course, those were made at the time that the Christians were being persecuted. So up to 312, when Constantine, won the battle of the Milvian Bridge, after having seen Jesus in a vision the night before. And he converts almost there and then on that, the, to Christianity. That basically between Jesus and 312, there were these awful persecutions happening. So the church was a hidden church. Mass had to be celebrated in people's houses so that the Roman authorities wouldn't find out. But, the Christians were buried in these catacombs, which were burial grounds, not just for Christians or, but also for others, but nevertheless, everything was hidden. And what you see, in this, this hidden way of living one's faith, is that there you see the seeds of of Christian art emerging mainly by small symbols, that are put on the walls. A little fish, to symbolize Christianity or an anchor, or a sheep, or even you mentioned the raising of Lazarus, or, earlier. Then. Then I mean, those things get depicted as well. So, so it's it's it's the first expressions that Christians want to do something pictorially, with their faith.
Betsy	And one of the beauties of your website and of your daily email is that if you go into the catacombs, it's dark down there and there's a little lamp that shows you that drawing. But with the way that you've depict the art, you can really blow it up and see all the details that you you often can't. But I want to ask you about the life of the actual artists and how you have somebody like Fra Angelica, who was he's a saint. He was a Dominican, friar, and he lived a really holy life. And then you have Caravaggio, who was kind of a scoundrel in a lot of his personal life. How do you think about that in relation to the authenticity of the religious sentiment that is depicted in the piece of art?
Fr. Patrick Van Der Vorst	Well, I think the simple answer is that they both created art which transcends themselves. There's so it transcends the artists. So you look at a Frank Jellicoe painting, even if you don't know that it was painted by Fran Jellicoe. It has merit, and it links, when we look at it, the beauty just takes us straight to God. And with Caravaggio, it's it's the same. Yes, he was scoundrel, as you say, and a very difficult character. Even killed someone and had to flee and got into fights. But nevertheless, the art created goes beyond him. As, as as a person. And I think that that's very important and that you have very much with ancient art, because all these artists that was their quest to create something that moved beyond them. And I think in this day and age, when you look at contemporary art, it's almost the reverse, because there a lot of the contemporary art that gets made is so linked to the artist. And about the artist feelings, what they think, how they see the world. In a lot of the art there is not that sort of transcendence that takes place.
Betsy	I wanted to talk for a minute about a Hans mumbling painting that you have on your website, and it's a 32 vignettes of the life of Christ, and you have this idea of how to look at the painting with your children or grandchildren. Can you can you talk about that and sort of an innovative way of drawing young people into art?
Fr. Patrick Van Der Vorst	Yes. I mean, Hans family was a painter born in, in, in Bruce late 14th, early 15th century. And he created this magnificent, oil painting on board depicting all the stations of the cross. Well, there's even more than the stations of the cross. It's the life, the last week of Jesus. It starts with Palm Sunday all the way through, through the to the resurrection. And it's just a fun painting to look at, because you can tell your children and say, well, try and find as many scenes of Jesus in this painting and you will find I can't remember enough from the top of my head how many there are, but I think there's 21 or 22 scene, so it's just a wonderful, joyful, interactive way for children to engage with, and to learn about and to learn about faith. And I think that is a very important aspect of our faith and about art is that ultimately, it's something joyful and a joy of our faith gets always so beautifully conveyed in art.
Betsy	As we mark Holy Saturday or Silent Saturday, there's a beautiful piece by Hans Holbein the Younger depicting the dead Christ in his tomb. It's a narrow, life size painting. Can you tell us the significance of this space between Good Friday and Easter Sunday, and how that painting can help us think about it?
Fr. Patrick Van Der Vorst	Yes, I think you you said it beautifully there. I mean, Holy Saturday and Silent Saturday in a lot of the languages, like like German or Flemish or Dutch, we call it Silent Saturday. And in a way it conveys that beautifully. But it's just a day where almost. Yeah, there is silence, but almost hope seems to be gone as well. And so, yeah, I think those are great days to choose paintings and, not necessarily conveying the body of Christ lying in the tomb, which is the painting that I chose, for the, for this coming week. But even sort of a landscape can work beautifully. Just something that brings us to ourselves and, and brings this quietness and conveys this quietness. So in other years, I want to use landscapes. And this time I've used quite a difficult picture to look at because it's literally just Christ's body laying, in the tomb. So it's this incredibly long horizontal painting, you see that Christ you see from the color of the skin of the painting that Christ, is dead, that it's a lifeless body. And I think that's very important to, to to look at that, that actually Christ did die and that he was in his tomb for three days and resurrected. So it's it's it's a good painting, but it's a very difficult painting to look at.
Betsy	Have you seen people convert to Christianity through art to see it?
Fr. Patrick Van Der Vorst	I'm not sure, but I'd like to think that that hopefully quite a few people will convert because of it. I think beauty is a wonderful inroads, into into the faith. And if I just may you ask the question, if I just may very briefly expand on that, please. Who's from Balthasar, who was a, a priest theologian of the 1960s. He was very visionary. He said, if you look at the three transcendental truth, goodness and beauty, so transcendental, we spoke about it before. It transcends time and space. So people always look for truth and beauty and and goodness, he said. The church will be at a time where we won't be able to talk from our pulpits and say, well, listen, let me tell you what the truth is, or let me tell you how to lead a good life. I mean, young people would just run a mile. However, with beauty, it's completely the opposite, he says. We'll have to start with beauty when not church, church pews are emptying. We have to sort of get people back into our churches through beauty and then through beauty. They will then learn the goodness and truth, get to the other, to the other, to to transcendental. And so I think, beauty definitely sets people on that journey towards God. It's not sort of the final point, but it's it's this non intimidating way to introduce people to, to God. And if I may just give an example, I remember before I went into the seminary, I used to come to Westminster Cathedral quite regularly, and at 5:00 this beautiful vespers sung in Latin by Westminster Cathedral Choir. And so sometimes when I was meeting friends in the evening, I said, well, yes, let's go for drinks and dinner, but why don't we meet first at 5:00 in the cathedral, and then we go somewhere close by? Oh, well, I don't go to church. And I said no, but you'll see, it's very beautiful. It's just 20 minutes, but you'll love it. And so they come. They listen to these beautifully sort of Gregorian chants of, of, of of Vespers sung and lo and behold, at some point in the evening these friends will always come back to what they experience there. At 5:00 they say, what is that actually that they sung? Well, it's Evening Prayer. It gets the same evening prayer get sung around the whole world are really. And they're like, so it's just this beauty that sort of instilled something in them that made them curious. And I think that's the power of art.
Betsy	And are you having a surge of people come into the church at Westminster Cathedral this Easter Vigil?
Fr. Patrick Van Der Vorst	Yes, there is. I mean, we've noticed in the last year that there is, that there's young, more young people coming to coming to church. And I think it's always hard to know what exactly the reason is, and it's probably several reasons, but we think when we talk about it amongst chaplains here at the cathedral, that a lot of it has to do that. Everything's feels very insecure these days. So much political turmoil going on in the world. Young people can sense what is true at the end of the day. I mean, you've got your truth, I've got my truth. Another friend has got his truth. And I think there is in young people this drive, they can sense that there is something true in our Catholic faith. And if they come to church and they see a beautiful liturgy, they say, oh, they've been doing this for like over 2000 years. So there must be something there that is, that is, that is true. And so we see a great curiosity now amongst young people. Yes.
Betsy	Are you doing any art history programs there at Westminster Cathedral sits that kind of your lane and your background?
Fr. Patrick Van Der Vorst	Yes, I give, I give talks. So I went today a couple of days ago I went to seminary, to talk to the we call them the seekers. They are they are men who are thinking about the priesthood, and who are discerning a vocation to the priesthood. And so I went to give a talk, to them and about the importance of, of, of beauty. So I think I think it's mainly with, with, with talks and giving tours in the cathedral as well, just to point out different things, in the fabric and the architecture of the cathedral.
Betsy	I know that you say that the Pieta is your favorite work of art, which is very fitting for Holy Week. But as we go into Easter, I hope everyone signs up for your email at Christian Dot Art because it's free and it comes every day to your inbox. But are there any particular paintings that you can point us to for the octave of Easter? To get ready? Maybe if they haven't, they're not all on your website yet that you think really express the beauty of Christ's resurrection?
Fr. Patrick Van Der Vorst	Yes, I think I mean, if you go on the website, there's a good search facility. So if you type in, Good Friday, you will get the paintings of the last 6 or 7 years or so. Okay. It's that's a good resource, I think for the resurrection. It's, it's I'd have to think which ones, would be my, my favorite ones. I think probably I would go towards the Italian Renaissance paintings, someone like, Andrea mantegna, or Raphael or because they're. You have a wonderful balance between not yet the highly dramatic, with what follows in the baroque and not yet, let's say, sort of the, the, the stiffness and the rigidity of medieval art. So I think, the Renaissance art, definitely for the subject of the resurrection, would have this perfect sort of balance.
Betsy	And how about Rembrandt? I know that you're from Belgium. So do you looked toward the northern Europeans at all?
Fr. Patrick Van Der Vorst	Yes. I mean, obviously from my cultural background, I would prefer Flemish paintings, the rather than Rembrandt, but I can appreciate them. And, and I mean, it's they're one wonderful, wonderful paintings. But it wouldn't necessarily be my first choice, but it's just personal preference. Yeah.
Betsy	Father, tell us about the conference that you're having in November in London to draw people from all over the world to talk about Christian art.
Fr. Patrick Van Der Vorst	Yes. So, as I said, now we have nearly 200,000 daily, subscribers to to the website and the thing is, I don't know who these people are who read, who because it's all online. So the, the, the initiative of the conference started, but out of curiosity, my own curiosity that I just want to meet some people who, reading these daily emails. So the conference will be for 1300 people, on the 14th of November. And we've got, very good speakers lined up. The, the director of the National Gallery here, Rowan Williams as sort of very good speakers. And the theme will be for all of us to get together just for one day, to to discuss how beauty and art helps all of us. Because I'm, I know I'm not unique. In, in in loving art and and how it brings us closer to God. So I think it'll be just be a very joyous occasion. And the conference will take place on the Saturday, the night before, on the 13th, of November. In the evening, we will have a mass here at Westminster Cathedral, which will be a mass for artists that the archbishop will celebrate. And the conference will end with those who want it, because it's with, evensong at Westminster Abbey. Because the conference center is just opposite Westminster Abbey, just for those who want to go to the Abbey as well.
Betsy	Well, it sounds like a wonderful gathering. And Father Patrick Vandervoort, thank you so much for joining us and helping us to grow our faith through art.
Fr. Patrick Van Der Vorst	You are more than welcome, Betsy, and God bless. Thank you.
Betsy	To learn more about Father Patrick Vandervoort Apostolate, go to Christian Dot Art to follow all the work we do for the Catholic Association. Visit us at Catholic association.org.
Ashley	Welcome back to conversations with consequences here on EWTN radio. On your host is Ashley McGuire, and we are in the midst of the baseball season at the McGuire household. So I'm very excited to talk to our next guest about a brand new film he has created called Basebal l Beyond Belief. The movie explores the compelling depths of how baseball and faith intertwine in powerful and surprising ways, and we are excited to have John Scheinfeld with us today. He is the writer, producer, and director of this movie. Welcome to the show, John.
John Scheinfeld	Thanks for having me, Ashley. Happy to be here.
Ashley	So as I mentioned, we are a baseball family. I'm a baseball mom. I have two boys who play travel ball and I'm married to a very rabid Mets fan. So I have learned to really love the sport. And gosh, I can't think of anything that is more exciting to me than combining the best sport in America with faith and exploring the ways that those two really parallel each other, mirror each other. So I understand the movie is based on the New York Times bestselling book baseball as a Road to God by John Sexton.
John Scheinfeld	John's book came out in 2013 and, as you mentioned, became a New York Times bestseller, and it combined, two things that you don't really connect in any significant way religion and baseball. And, I done a film back in 2008 about, Chicago's love affair with the Chicago Cubs. And I had worked with a number of the people at, Major League Baseball, and we were looking for a new project that we might do, and it took many years. But, one day in 2019, I got a call from, Nick Trotta at Major League Baseball who said, I'm going to send you this book. And I'm wondering if you think there's a documentary in it. And, I read the book, and I was absolutely fascinated by it. As I say, combine two things that I would not have thought is possible to combine, but it raised some really thoughtful, smart, fun, and entertaining, issues about both subjects. And I was just thinking this would make a great, uplifting, inspiring film. And that's what really got me interested. We, we've been working on it for for a few years. We got, sidetracked by Covid and some other issues, but I'm just, really proud of this picture and happy that it's finally coming out.
Ashley	We have one of those posters in our house which has every major league stadium, and it comes with the sticker, and my husband is, one by one taking one of my sons. It's funny. Now, now my next son is also become a big baseball fan. So I think the trips are going to start expanding, but slowly checking off each major league stadium. And I loved in the movie where it talks about stadiums is like cathedrals, but talk a little bit about that parallel of like sacred spaces and both in religion and what what stadiums and mean to sports fans.
John Scheinfeld	As much as people will go to church or temple or synagogue to, explore their faith and to experience their traditions. The same is true when you go to your favorite ballpark, whether it's, the Mets park or, I'm a Cubs fan, so it's Wrigley. Or if you're a Boston Red Sox fan, it's Fenway. These parks all have such great traditions, and there's a distinct feeling when you enter the ballpark. And I think it it, welcomes you into this tradition. In the case of baseball, that's what the ballparks do. And so I think that's really fascinating. But you talk about your husband being such a devout fan and and your kids playing dad. I'm sure you see this where as you're rooting for your team, you have faith in them, but yet you will have doubt that they're actually going to win this game. Or the pitcher is going to strike out the batter that he needs to strike out, or they're going to make the big play in the outfield. There are rituals. There's a sense of community. You can be at a ball game, and there will be a miracle in real time. Somebody's making a terrific defensive play or a great hit. So these are some of the hallmarks of of both religion and baseball. And that's what fascinated us in this film.
Ashley	Yeah. Talk about miracles. I loved the, the Kirk Gibson story feature feels almost like a supernatural miracle to baseball fans.
John Scheinfeld	Absolutely. It was, the World Series, and it was just not anything that the Dodgers were going to win. They were behind. It was the bottom of the ninth. They bring up to bad Kirk Gibson, who is hobbling on one leg, can barely walk. Can barely, have to bat. And yet they send him out there. What we were able to do in the film mostly when you see highlights of this game, you just see the, the, homerun that he hits that wins the game for the Dodgers. But what we were able to do because we had access to the Major League Baseball archive. So we got to show you the few plays that, the few, pitches that led up to that homerun. And what you see is this guys really struggling. Yeah, he can barely hit it. He can't really run, up to to first base. The announcers are telling us that he's been struggling with this for for days, and, wasn't even going to, suit up for this game. And yet he does, and he hits this, I would call it the, the Immaculate Conception of home runs. In terms of, you didn't expect it to happen, but yet there it is. They win the game and it qualifies, I guess in baseball sense is a miracle.
Ashley	One thing I was surprised to see in the movie were some interviews with actual chaplains, and I had no idea there was such a thing as team chaplains. And how long has it been a part of baseball?
John Scheinfeld	I can't really answer that question. Actually, I don't know. About, every team, but there are a number of chaplains, in Major League Baseball, we interviewed Willie Alfonso, who is the chaplain for the New York Yankees, and his job is to be a spiritual advisor to the players, as they need it. But also, he, will have a prayer service before the game, both for the home team and the visiting team and just kind of be there if they need to talk about something. Willie is a fascinating character who, experienced his own redemption in life. He had, gone down a very bad path in terms of drug addiction. And he was homeless for a while. And, by putting his faith in God, he turned his life around. And now he is he is chaplain to one of the, primary, franchises in Major League Baseball. And, as he said to me in the interview, he said, sometimes it's better not to open up your mouth. Sometimes it's better just to listen. And that's, I think, how he views his job as the chaplain is to listen to the people that come to talk to him, see what's on their mind, and then if they ask or if he feels, that he can offer something important, he will say, so, like you, I did not know this was a job in Major League Baseball, but here it is. And, I'm glad we could include him in our film. Fascinating character.
Ashley	Talk about the two priests you feature who who go to baseball games to believe they were Franciscans. And they made an interesting comment about how, you know, there used to be this thing called street preaching and preachers and priests would go into the street, but they said, that's not really where people gather anymore. And and they tend to gather in, in sports events and talk a little bit about their ministry. They were really fun.
John Scheinfeld	Yeah, really fascinating guys. Father Casey and Father Tito, Franciscans, as you mentioned, they look, depending what your age and frame of reference is, they dress and they look either like Friar Tuck out of the Robin Hood movies, or they look like they're right out of a Star Wars film. And, but they're young guys who love baseball, and, they decided that, yes, they couldn't go out into the town square and preach the gospel, that they thought they would go to places where where people do gather. And as baseball fans, they said, let's go to every baseball park in America. So one summer they went out to all 32 ballparks, and, they weren't proselytizing in the sense of getting in people's faces and talking. They really just made themselves available and because of the way they they look in these robes, people would come up to them and said, well, what are you? And sometimes they would joke, well, may the force be with you. We're Jedi and, and that would lead to some other kind of conversation. But, a lot of times they would talk baseball and, a lot of times they would actually talk, more spiritual matters. They, they talk about a gentleman that came up to them. And I was just dealing with the passing of a parent from cancer and didn't quite know how to deal with it, and they ended up talking about it. And, the friars gave him some comfort. And so I thought, again, this was a perfect way to show this intersection of baseball and faith. You have these two young friars who are baseball fans. Not only do they, merge the two subjects in their own lives, but by going to the 32 ballparks, they then, can, combine this and other people's lives as well.
Ashley	So I've thought about writing about this because it it has started to feel like going to a baseball game is almost not family friendly because the expense, the difficulty, even sometimes some of the music, and yet it's it's still such a, a wonderful rite of passage away, especially for fathers and sons to bond. But can you talk a little bit.
John Scheinfeld	About the.
Ashley	Role of, of baseball in, in, in family life and sort of forging these traditions with, with fathers and sons and even sometimes the kind of friendly inter family rivalries with teams and things like that.
John Scheinfeld	Well, I cannot tell you how many people we talked to that all had a similar experience where as a child, their father took them to a game or introduced them to baseball on television and, and took out a score card and showed their, son how to score a game for nine innings. And, it's a little bit like religion, in a way. Also, where as a child you don't choose whether you're going to have faith, you don't choose what your faith is going to be. You are raised in a tradition, of your parents, and much the same for, for baseball. If if, the father is a Yankee fan, you are likely to be a Yankee fan. We have a couple of examples that we talk about, in the film about conversion, where you're, much like some people will convert from one faith to another. Some people may also convert, from rooting for one team and then start rooting for another. We have a lovely, touching, emotional story of, John Sexton, who wrote the book, who, have been raised a Brooklyn Dodger fan, and the Yankees were the, you know, pardon the expression, the anti-Christ for him. And, but as he grew up, his son, decided that he was going to root for the Yankees and so here was a father, who had a decision to make. Am I going to, try to force my son to root for the Dodgers, as I always have since I was a kid? Or am I going to, support him in his faith in the Yankees? And he decided he would convert to being a Yankee fan. But I think, it's very much, the traditions of baseball and the traditions of faith that the parents and children can share together. And we see this in, multiple ways in our film.
Ashley	The film talks a lot about how baseball mirrors religion. We've talked a little bit about this, but give a few more examples. For example, you refer in the film to the World Series as the High Holy Days, or you talk about some of these, these moments in a baseball game that are almost like liturgical, like the national anthem. But what are some of the other ways that, a baseball game and the baseball season mirrors faith and religion and specifically specific practices and things like that.
John Scheinfeld	Where we can talk about sacred times, of the years. So, depending on on what your faith is, you you have Christmas, you have Easter, you you have, Hanukkah, whatever it may be. But in baseball, it's, opening day, is is a sacred time of the year for baseball fans of all teams, sacred, I think because, everyone is starting out with a fresh start. You're you're you're zero. Zero, and the World Series, is ahead of you at some point. And that's the other, sacred time of the year. The World Series. That means so much to baseball fans and baseball players. We have rituals. If you think about it, if you go to church, if you go to temple, there are rituals with prayers and psalms and, people, expressing their faith in different ways. And the same thing is true when you go to a, a baseball park, you see the rituals of the players sometimes, we saw we have some film, in, in, in our picture about people who will jump over the third base line because it's a tradition. Somehow they feel they're going to play better if they do that. There are also rituals of they will wear the same socks for one game after another because they keep winning and they think it's the lucky socks that do that. So rituals can, can, can play in it. I think also a great sense of community. I think if you go to the ballpark and you're rooting for your team, it doesn't matter what age you are, doesn't matter what sex you are, doesn't matter what race you are. It doesn't matter what your politics are. You are all in this space to root for your team. And that gives a real sense of community, a sense of belonging. And, I think that is true also, when you go to church or temple synagogue where you are, with people who believe in the same principles and traditions that you do, and you are then in a community of like minded people. So those are some other ways that do that.
Ashley	You know, I have to say, it's so true. I, I'm a busy mom with five kids, and people are always that. How much time I spend at my son's baseball games. And what I love about it is the way it forces me to slow down. And I just sit there and just kind of watch I take in, I chat with people, I often bring my little kids and they just ride their bikes by. And it's, it's a it's a very peaceful part of my week that I love. One other thing, you know, you were talking about sacred moments for me. It's it's the pitchers and catchers report. That to me is like, I'm Catholic. That's like, when you ring the bell, like, okay, it's begun. Quick, last question. You know, there's a lot of these athletes today, you know, are there any men in the MLB that you see really kind of speaking out about their faith? I'm noticing a lot of that. But is that something you're seeing?
John Scheinfeld	Well, you know, it was interesting actually, when we were booking interviews for the film, we reached out to a lot of players. We did get, two really terrific, players, Curtis Granderson and Sean Green and, they were very happy to talk about their faith. But what I did find, what was very interesting is we reached out to a number of players, and while they acknowledged the value in what we were, attempting to accomplish in this film, they felt that their faith was very private and it was something for them and their families, and they didn't really want to speak about it publicly. So that, I thought, was kind of an interesting expression of their faith. A lot of people are sort of out there saying, yes, I believe this, and I'm very excited about this. And the other people that were very private about it, something about baseball players who live their lives in public every day or every other day, makes it to, I think, a more private expression of faith for them. And so that's what we what we discovered. What you do see, though, is sort of unspoken expressions of faith. And we see that in many different ways where after a player has a great play, they will cross themselves, or they will kiss their lips and point up to the heavens. So I think there are other ways in which they do that. It isn't always simply talking about it.
Ashley	Well, I just love the way your film, does bring to light the the beautiful way that America's pastime reflects kind of our human innate spirituality. And so love the movie night listeners. Where can they find it? Where can they stream it? Is it coming to theaters? Where can they watch.
John Scheinfeld	It for opening up in New York? At the Village East Theater for, a weeklong engagement. And I'll be in New York doing some Q and A's on the first two nights. And then after that, there's going to be a very special broadcast of the film on Easter Sunday on Fox Sports one. Yes. It's going to be a slightly trimmed down version of the film. So if people want to see the full film, please come to the theater and see it. And then after the Fox Sports broadcast, will be on various video on demand platforms where people can seek it out. So, again, the title of the film is Baseball Beyond Belief, which we love is a title, by the way, because it speaks to, again, both sides. You can be just a baseball fan and say, oh, baseball's just beyond belief. I love going to games. It's great. It's great for my kids. But but also it's beyond belief because you can believe in your faith. And there is something beyond that in the experience of bringing these things together that I think is a worthy endeavor. So, I'm very proud, as I say, this picture, and I hope your, listeners will, will check us out.
Ashley	Well, we've been talking with John Schoenfeld, the filmmaker of Baseball Beyond Belief. I've watched it. It's a wonderful movie, great for watching during spring break and Easter season. So I encourage all our listeners to watch it. And thank you, John, for coming on the show today.
John Scheinfeld	Thanks for having me, Ashley. Appreciate it.
Betsy	Welcome back to conversations with consequences, where I am joined by TCA Chaplain Monsignor Roger Landry, and we are in Holy Week. Monsignor Landry, how can we get ready for the big Triduum that we're all been preparing for for the last five and a half weeks?
Msgr Landry	So the tritium is the most important part of the Catholic Church's liturgical year. And so we really have to take it seriously. Holy Thursday is in a holy day of obligation, because any serious Catholic would never go to mass just simply because he has to. This is the greatest invitation that will ever receive from the Lord himself, who is eagerly desiring to eat the Passover with us before he suffers. And so for us to go there, the church always says, there are three things we mark and Holy Thursday. The first thing is we mark the institution of the Holy Eucharist that Jesus has given himself. And I can't stress enough that it wasn't enough that Jesus took on our human nature and entered our world. He loved us more than that. It wasn't enough that he was crucified for us and rose on the third day. He loved us more than that. The ultimate of his saving plan was for us to enter into literal Holy Communion with him through eating his flesh and drinking his blood. And so the Eucharist is the summit of salvation history. And that's what we mark tonight, that he loved us enough that we were going to be able to have the experience that Mary had when she gestated him for nine months. We received the same Jesus within she carried that entire time. The only difference is his appearances. The only difference is his humility. Beyond just taking on our human nature as a one cell embryo and then growing just like we grow. He hides himself under what seemed to be the physical appearance of bread and wine. But there's no bread and wine there. This is the mind blowing, awesome reality of the Holy Eucharist, and we mark that on Holy Thursday. So the first thing we mark second is what makes the Eucharist possible, which is the institution of the Holy priesthood, which is what he did on Holy Thursday as well, in that upper room where he told his first apostles, do this in memory of me, not just do something in memory of me. Do this in memory of me, that the way we're going to keep Jesus with us always until the end of time in a living memorial, which is the way the Jews always looked at a memorial. It wasn't just an event in the past. It was bringing the past, actualizing in the future. The way would remember Jesus and actualize our communion with him is through the mass. And so he unholy Thursday ordained as first priests. And they've been ordaining priests ever since. And then we likewise mark his command of fraternal love. The rubrics call it that Jesus washed the feet of the apostles, kind of like a sacrament of penance, almost in preparation for mass, because they had already been washed. Jesus said in those words, which point to the sacrament of baptism, but they just needed to be cleansed of what actually came into physical contact in the world. As they were traversing the day to day dirty streets of ancient Jerusalem and Palestine and Israel, etc.. And so Jesus said, I've done this as an example, so that just as I have done for you, you may also do. And so Jesus wants us to do the dirty work. He wants us to love others as he has loved us. He wants us to do whatever it takes, including washing their feet, the work of a slave in order to be able to bring them to life. And so we might call three of those realities on Holy Thursday. And it's particularly special if you love your parish priests and you want to do something for them, show up on Holy Thursday. This is the institution of the priesthood. They're there for the Eucharist. And if they celebrate Holy Thursday in an empty church because Catholics are watching NCAA basketball or anything else like this, it can suck a little bit of the spiritual wind out of them. But if people show up in great numbers because they want to be there, what a gift that is to your parish priest. Then of course, we shift to Good Friday, the one day during the year Betsy, where I encourage Catholics, if they don't already have it off from work, to just take it off from work. We would take a day off from work if our mom or dad or husband or wife or son or daughter, our best friend, our brother or sister were dying. Why would we do less for Jesus and to make that time to be able to come and ponder just how much he loved us, that he would go through all of that to save us, to take away our sins. Just out of gratitude, we need to be there. You know, there are many opportunities on a Good Friday for us to pray the stations of the cross for us to begin the novena of Divine Mercy. But there are two that are the most traditional, and I think the most powerful. The first is that passion service in which we ponder Saint John's version of the passion. A lot of the times it's sung very beautifully, especially in Cathedral. And then we have a chance to venerate the cross of Jesus, in which we genuflect toward it. On this one day during the year, we kiss the cross or kiss Jesus's body, often without shoes on or sandals just as a thing of humility. And then we're able to receive the fruit of that cross, which is the tree of life, which is Jesus's sacred body and Holy Communion, consecrated the night before. It's the one day in the year we don't have mass, but we are able to receive the real fruit of the mass, Jesus himself in Holy Communion. The other main activity, which I had the privilege to preach last year in New York, is the seven last words of Jesus, the seven things that through excruciating pain he enunciated because he wanted us to understand what he was thinking as he was saving us on Calvary. And so, especially in big cities, you have the seven last words. They'll be at Saint Patrick's in New York, preached, by somebody else this year. But I'm very grateful that Archbishop Hicks, the new bishop of New York, has asked me to preach the Good Friday Passion service. So any time I have the privilege to preach at Saint Patrick's, it's always a very beautiful thing. And anybody across the country who might not have access to those, in their parish churches, you could go to Saint Patrick's Cathedral website from New York and be able to follow it even from home. And then Holy Saturday is the culmination of the church's liturgical year. And we've got the most beautiful and by far the longest mass of the year. It's got, ceremony in which we bless the Easter fire and light the Easter candle off of it, which is symbolic and ancient and something we all should know. Then we have the longest feast of the Word of God, 17 courses, seven Old Testament reading, seven Psalms, a New Testament reading another Psalm. And then we have the gospel that we proclaim at the, Easter Vigil. It is so rich as we go through all of salvation history, culminating in what Jesus did. Then we have the baptisms of the new adults who are coming into the church, who have been preparing many of them for nine months or longer in order to be able to enter the church. And we are more related to our new brothers and sisters by the blood of Jesus than I am to my identical twin brother Scott by genes. And we need to live that reality. We're welcoming new family members, and so we come. And sometimes in a lot of places this year, we've had huge upticks in the amount to want to become Catholic and so we're going to be able to cheer them on at the starting line of their Catholic life so that together with them, we're able to sprint in the pilgrimage of the church to eternity. And then of course, we have the celebration of the liturgy, the Eucharist, in which we're able to receive the risen body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus as its culmination. The double lot, like, yes, everything else that are sung. It's so incredibly joyful. And so this is the time for us to show because we love the Lord. How much we love him by accompanying him closely through the Last Supper, through Calvary, through the, his bursting through, bursting forth from the tomb. And so I am so excited. As you can hear, I'm almost not letting you get in a word in edgewise. That's it. As as we enter into these great ministries.
Betsy	Thank you so much for a really detailed explanation of why each one of these services and masses is so important for the the next four days. Will you give us an Easter blessing?
Msgr Landry	Sure. The Lord be with you and.
Betsy	With your.
Msgr Landry	Spirit. May the blessing of the risen Lord Jesus the Father, who loved us enough to send him to us in the Holy Spirit, who helps us to give joint witness to the fact that Jesus is very much alive. Descend upon you and remain with you forever.
Betsy	Amen. Thank you, Monsignor Landry.
Msgr Landry	God bless you, Betsy. Happy Easter.
Betsy	Happy Easter. Be sure to join us next week. Where, man. Senior Landry gives us a full scope of all the things we have to look forward to with the coming beatification of the venerable Fulton J. Sheen in September.