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Episode Description
Award-winning photographer Jeffrey Bruno joins us to share his remarkable journey from the heavy metal music industry to a profound reversion to the Catholic faith, and how an encounter with Christ in the Eucharist ultimately put a camera in his hands. Bruno reflects on documenting the National Eucharistic Pilgrimage, witnessing Christ carried through the streets of America, and why he believes his mission as a photographer is simply to reveal the beauty and mission of the Church.
With a major women’s conference right around the corner, Erika Bachiochi previews “A Better Way Forward for Women,” an event that will bring together leading thinkers, writers, and advocates with a vision of women’s rights rooted in human dignity. She explains the proposed “Declaration of Interdependence,” how radical autonomy has failed women, and shares insights on a renewed women’s movement recognizing men and women are made for relationship, responsibility, and service with dignity to one another.
Finally, TCA Chaplain Msgr. Roger Landry helps us prepare for the Solemnity of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary, exploring the ancient roots of the feast, and celebrating what Catholics believe about the assumption.
Catch the show every Saturday at 7amET/5pmET on EWTN radio!
And don’t forget to subscribe to TCA’s daily media roundup for smart Catholic news and commentary delivered straight to your inbox.
Bios
Jeffrey Bruno is an award-winning Catholic photojournalist, writer, and creative director dedicated to capturing the beauty and mission of the Catholic Church through imagery. He studied Baroque music before entering New York’s heavy metal scene in the 80s as a musician, engineer, and producer touring with rock bands across Europe. A profound reversion to the Catholic faith in 2004 inspired him to pass up a lucrative offer from one of the world’s most prestigious recording studios and redirect his path toward photography and family. His work has earned multiple accolades and he has served as lead photographer for major events such as the canonization of Mother Teresa, Pope Francis’s visit to the United States, and outlets including the National Catholic Register, EWTN News, EWTN TV, and Aleteia. He lives with his wife, two children and grandchildren in a Civil War-era house by the shore in the New York area. His work can also be found on his Substack, Words and Pictures by Jeffrey Bruno.
Erika Bachiochi is a legal scholar, author, and fellow at the Ethics and Public Policy Center focusing on constitutional law, political theory, women’s history, and Catholic social teaching. She earned a B.A. from Middlebury College, an M.A. in theology as a Bradley Fellow at Boston College, and a J.D. from Boston University School of Law, and served as a visiting scholar at Harvard Law School. She is author of The Rights of Women: Reclaiming a Lost Vision, a finalist for the Intercollegiate Studies Institute’s Conservative Book of the Year award, and the editor of Women, Sex & the Church and The Cost of “Choice”. She directs the Mercy Otis Warren Initiative for Women in Civic Life and Thought at Arizona State University where she is a Professor of Practice. She is founding editor-in-chief of the journal Fairer Disputations, and a senior fellow at the Abigail Adams Institute, founding the Wollstonecraft Project. A Catholic feminist and pro-life advocate, she co-founded St. Benedict Classical Academy. She is a happily married mother of seven children.
Monsignor Roger Landry is a priest of the Diocese of Fall River, Massachusetts. A graduate of Harvard and the Pontifical North American College in Rome, he served as Attaché to the Holy See’s Permanent Observer Mission to the UN in New York. In 2024, he was appointed National Director of the Pontifical Mission Societies in the USA by Pope Francis. He writes for numerous publications, speaks on radio and TV, and served as executive editor for the Diocese of Fall River weekly paper. He is the author of Plan of Life: Habits to Help You Grow Closer to God, and was an on-site commentator for EWTN during the last two papal conclaves. He serves as the New York Chaplain for the Leonine Forum. Msgr. Landry traversed the 1500-mile Eucharist Pilgrimage in 2024, coinciding with his 25th year in the priesthood. In June 2026, he was appointed by Pope Leo XIV to the Vatican Dicastery for the Doctrine of Evangelization.
The following transcript is machine generated.
Episode 382 Transcript
| Betsy | Welcome to conversations with consequences. I'm your host, Betsy Fentress, and thrilled to have with us Jeffrey Bruno, an award winning photographer who has traversed many of the national Eucharistic pilgrimages during this year of Eucharistic Revival, including ones that our beloved TCA chaplain, Monsignor Roger Landry, has been part of, and also documenting the sacred vows of the Sisters of Life, consecrated virgins, priestly ordinations, canonization, beatification, and so many other moments. Jeff, thanks for making time for us today. |
| Jeffrey Bruno | Thank you very much, Betsy. It is a pleasure to be here. Great to have this conversation. |
| Betsy | So you did not start off as a photographer. From what I've gathered, you started off in the heavy metal scene in New York City, right? |
| Jeffrey Bruno | Yeah, I would say, I was in the music industry for most of my life up until my mid 30s. And then I had a kind of an existential crisis and, Yeah. And then I, I went on a search, I guess you could say. And, was looking for, for purpose and meaning in life. And I ended up, through a radical, conversion reversion experience, coming into the faith and that pretty much everything that happened at that point, that was 2004, kind of dictated how the rest of my life unfolded, you know? So I was, eternally grateful for that. So. |
| Betsy | So you moved near a Catholic church, sort of, without knowing it. |
| Jeffrey Bruno | Yeah. Well, I mean, if I look backwards, you know, it's like, then I could see God's hand at so many different things, you know? But, you know, at the time when I was a little kid, it's like. I mean, I was the one kid in class when I was like seven years old, if you ask, you know, what are you going to be when you grow up? I was like, I was gonna be a musician. I was going to have a big boat, and I was gonna have a big family. And that's all I was, very driven and very determined from a very young age. And I put all my eggs in that basket. And I had kind of rose to, you know, where I thought I would want it to be, you know, in the music industry as a musician and as a co-producer and a producer and, and then, I found out that actually, it was completely empty. It was, it was none of the promise of the, you know, the worldly promises and none of what I thought, you know, would satisfy me. I ended up doing that. And, again, praise God. You know, it's like I was able to, you know, have that experience of searching and discerning, and, I wasn't I wasn't, which I guess at the time when I was kind of before, just before this reversion conversion, I was at a very dark point. And, I didn't think that God existed, and I, I kind of went on a, I don't know what it was. Somebody had prompted me somebody and this is actually something for everybody. Somebody just told me, hey, you should go to mass. And that's all it took, you know? So it's like sometimes you might think, you know, like you tell somebody, hey, you know, I'll pray for you. I should say a prayer about that. Just say the simple things sometimes, because sometimes it's only it's the grace of the Holy Spirit through those simple things that you say will get the person to where they need to be. So, you know, don't think you need some big fancy discourse. You know, it's not it's helpful to have that too. But just saying, if you think it's if you got nothing but something simple to say to somebody who's in a situation, say it. |
| Betsy | I saw really moving clip of you just you sort of just plopped yourself down in church and said, okay. |
| Jeffrey Bruno | Yeah. |
| Betsy | And you really felt this warm love. |
| Jeffrey Bruno | Oh yeah. Now that's embrace. It's amazing. It's the I mean, and it's really defies words. You know, the whole that whole experience. I didn't think God existed and but at the same time, I was raised Catholic. I guess I wanted to know if God existed. And, you know, I had nothing and nowhere else to turn at this point in time in my life. And, I was I started. Yeah. We exactly. We we serendipitously were God kind of moved it. We moved about two blocks from the church. And so I'd walk over there in the morning and I'd, I'd go and I'd be like, you know, I had nothing else going on. So I was like, well, God, I don't first of I don't know if you're really there. I don't really think you're there. But if you are there, I really would like to know. But also one other thing is like, if you are there, you know, I don't love you because I, you know, I was thinking I was thinking about reflecting. I was like, well, the first commandment is love God. And I was like, I don't love God. I don't even think he's there, you know? So it's kind of like, you know, I like I'm kind of like stuck. And then, you know, all of my head thinking and all that type of stuff kind of all just got to got blown right out the window. When one day I received the Blessed Sacrament after I had gone to confession, I was going through the motions in a way, I guess you could say. But at the same time, I think that maybe I wasn't going through the motions. But here's the Holy Spirit was kind of guiding me towards this. And I knelt down after that, that one, this one time when I received the Blessed Sacrament and I felt, I can't even really describe it, but I just felt this, this totality of love and this, this, this mercy and this embrace and this, this presence that just this completely, completely. It just took me. It swept me away. And I was when I realized at that point that, you know, not only was there a God, but he was talking to me and I was just like, whoof. And so, you know. Yeah. And then at that point, I walked out of the church, you know, I'm like, well, you know, what do you want me to do? So and that actually kind of lead to some other things maybe we'll discuss. But, I did a lot of, web development and computer stuff, like in my early days, I would say that was one of my, my claims to fame in the music business is that I was like, the one guy that knew how to program things. And, because when I was a kid, I was also heavily involved in computers and whatnot. So, I looked at the Catholic Internet back in 2004, and it was a train wreck, like most of the internet, and I decided that I was going to save, you know, like the Catholic into always going to be a pioneer of the Catholic Internet and started building websites and things like that. And, yeah. And that kind of led to photography because there were no pictures for the websites at the time. So I bought a camera and started taking pictures of things. And so pretty much everything that I do now is, you know, I pray it's God's will number one. And I try to discern that daily. But, it definitely was all I was set on this path by by that encounter and by that. Yeah. And at that time, you know, so it kind of all began there. And it didn't take pictures before. I didn't write for I didn't do anything else before. It's kind of like so. |
| Betsy | Well, your pictures are really stunning, and I know that you kind of got your leap into fame by going to the beatification of Pope John Paul the second. Yeah, yeah. Got a lucky break from the Vatican. |
| Jeffrey Bruno | Sure did. Which is. |
| Betsy | That's, and you have a picture of, Pope Benedict that went viral all over the world. And so once that happened, did you just think, okay, I'm I'm a Catholic photographer, and I'm going to really devote my life to to this exclusively. |
| Jeffrey Bruno | You know, it's it's people first off, you know, it is a craft. You know, it's like, you know, for any, any anything that you do in life, you know, there's skill involved, this knowledge involved, things like that. I'd say it was kind of 5050. It's like because it's like I believe in, I guess what you in my case and I do it badly, but perpetual discernment, it's like I really whatever he wants me to do, that's what I want to do. And if he wants me to do this, I'll do this. But if he wants me to do something different, if it's going to change, that's okay. It's like, I don't it doesn't it's not it's not about photography for me. It's like in other words, it's like, I don't. If I lost my faith today, I would hang up the camera tomorrow. It's like it's just like I have it. The only reason I shoot or I take photographs is to try to show the beauty and the mission of the church. That's the only the only reason, the only purpose, you know, in my, you know, to me, am I a Catholic photographer? You, you know, by definition I am, but I don't I don't know, I'm not sure if I think of myself so much in that department in that way. |
| Betsy | Yeah. Flannery O'Connor used to say that, you know, I'm a Catholic and I'm a writer, right? Yeah. You're a you're a Catholic and you're a photographer. Catholic. Interesting. So you've spent months on the Eucharistic pilgrimage with pilgrims, bishops, people kneeling. What strikes you most about that time in that experience? |
| Jeffrey Bruno | Well, to begin with, it was one of the most you know to date. You know, the most the greatest privilege of my life. I just put it like that. The thing that strikes me most, I mean, it's it's kind of easy in a way, but, you know, it's also sounds maybe really simple, but just to be in the presence of the Lord for that much time. And the thing is, it's not like going to an adoration chapel, like, you know, I go to adoration periodically and, that's beautiful, you know, and it's wonderful to be with him there, but to be with him in different communities on the streets of America, in different environments, in different weather. It's it's a very different, very tangible experience. And you really feel the way I felt and I, I've written about it is that it felt to me, perhaps the way it was for the apostles, you know, when they were walking with Christ through the streets of Jerusalem or wherever, because you're on pilgrimage, you're going, you're going with the Lord places. It's like you can say you're carrying there, but really he's carrying us. You know, it's like we're going with him, you know, to these places the efficacy of his grace on the communities and people. It's you just. And to be able to witness the impact of his presence on the lives of the people that you encounter throughout this, it's breathtaking. It's really and, you know, not only, you know, it's great for, you know, it's wonderful for me, you know, just to have the privilege. But, you know, and I don't think I did it justice, you know, in covering it, you know, it's like I because this is so much to say and so much to tell and so much you could show that, you know, it's just so, I mean, super long winded answer to a simple question. His presence, you know, presence. |
| Betsy | Well, you wrote about this on your Substack where you say all drawn by the same thing, not an idea, but a presence. And so particularly in the streets of Manhattan, which is kind of a different animal than, you know, being on the Appalachian Trail or something. What what's it like to have all these people staring who are not Catholics, not believers staring at this monstrance with our Lord in it, sure held up high, you know, gold robes and candles and altar boys. What's it? What do you what do you see in the people that are staring? |
| Jeffrey Bruno | I see the faces of the people that saw Jesus in Jerusalem. I'm telling you, it's like it just it's it echoes. That's so much the curiosity, the the wonder, you know, and one of the it's like this. And again, it's like one of the things it's like to see it is one thing. And you're right, you know, a lot of people just see it. They see it for what it is, just as you described. And I think that this but his presence is there. So his presence has effect. It's like I, I think that, you know, a lot of the things we talk about this day and age about is the word revival gets thrown around a lot, you know, and at the same time, there's polls and data that suggest otherwise. And yet, you know, from my time in the streets and in churches and around the country, I see something is happening. You know, there is definitely a spark of of renewal. Is is alive and, yeah, maybe revival, you know, it's like things have changed, things are different. But that being said, I think it directly coincides with this with the pilgrimages, because I think that you can't bring him through the streets of America without nothing happening. It's like something happens because of him, because of his presence, because of the grace that he has. So it's like, you know, people encounter him at different levels depending upon where they are in their walk of faith. You know, some people might not be Christian like, you know, like if you're going down a city street and you get, you know, you're going through the barrio, you know, and it's like this whole area where it's, you know, a very, very mixed bag of different types of people. You know, he got everything from, you know, criminals to saints, you know, it's like the whole the whole array of humanity is there. And so people are in different places there. The grace is going to affect them differently. You know, and I, I don't know that those those are stories I'll never hear. None of us will, probably. But I just think that, you know, it's it's, I think the, the feeling that you have when you're processing with him, especially in, in environments where you're maybe more of an oddity, is humility. I think that you, you feel humbled to be with him in that environment. You know, it's not pride, you know, and I don't mean pride in the worst in the bad way of the word. But it's not that. It's it's you're humbled to be present. It's like you're called to be there because if you're there, you're called. It's like, you know, if you're processing what if you were called to be there and you, you know, just again, the honor, the privilege, you know, nothing but humbling, you know, and it's and you can kind of see it in the people when they're processing the joy. It's like it's unreal. It's like it's just like this is palpable, you know? And of course there is, you know, it's because I mean, he's the author of the universe, the author of Joy, of beauty, of everything. And so it's like you're in the presence of the divine, you know, of of what the after, what heaven will be like. Oh, goodness gracious. You know, there's so much there. So yeah. |
| Betsy | So I want to talk about your Substack because you I'm sure you have so many beautiful subjects that you tackle. So as a freelance journalist, sometimes you're just we see your pictures at various outlets, but on Substack you also write, and it's really almost like poetry. Jeff. It's just it's it's amazing. And I want to talk about two subjects. The first is the nuns. You've you're drawn to the Sisters of Live consecrated versions. What's it like to be a male photographer to go in and document this? |
| Jeffrey Bruno | Well, I didn't set out to do that. I just want to get that clear. Yeah, but I will say this is that, you know, but, you know, at the same time, I think one of the things that comes across very powerfully in religious women in particular, is virtue, and virtue is something that the world needs to see. In other words, it's like we could talk about virtue, we could talk about modesty, we could talk about respect and all kinds of different things and the dignity of, you know, femininity and the feminine genius. We can talk about all of it, but they kind of just proclaim it with their lives. It's like, you know, it's without saying a word. You're getting a lesson in, in, in faith, in devotion, in virtue. It's in charity. Goodness gracious. So, you know, there's something that is uniquely, beautiful about, you know, the religious women that are called into religious life. Again, as you know, as an echo of Mary, you know, maybe, you know, we're, you know, the kind of like a, you know, I don't want to go. I, I, I was just at a women's conference, a women's leadership forum conference, the giving, institute for. Right. Yeah. And, so that was if you want to if, if anybody was ever out of place, it was me because I had the cover of that. And it was it was literally the ideas were for women by women, you know, and it was all, you know, and I learned so much, you know, just from being presence in that because in prison, in that, again, it's like that I wrote something about that and I'm still trying to unpack it, but I do wish there was something like that for men anyway. But that's my only thing. So anybody out there wants to get something started for men like that contact, Jen over at the at the given and figure out something. It'd be really wonderful. Okay, but back to what you're saying, though. I think, you know, one of the things also is that in New York in particular, the Franciscan sisters, the Renewal Dominican Sisters, the Sisters of Life, they're very present in the city. And a lot of times they're at things that just did like at the events that are going on. It's their events. It's their or they're involved with them. So, you know, for somebody like me that's looking to tell the Catholic story, you know, in New York is kind of local to me, not super local, but we're a little bit away from it. But, it's the logical place to go and you just naturally encounter them and then you naturally get drawn into the stories and naturally it's the way it goes. Yeah. And it's and it's it's, I guess also with the sisters alive in particular. They are. Well, one thing is like, as a born and bred New Yorker, you know, there is that the the wrong kind of pride coming from me now because they're natively new York, they're founded in New York and generally. But the thing is, is an actually, I've just I just finished a piece, I'm going to launch it. They're going to put it out today. About that and about this particular thing, their, their, their presence in New York as a response to a grave problem that New York faces, which is its pro-abortion, ultra pro-abortion stance. And it's, you know, we just I think they just signed into law, the, assisted suicide thing, you know, and, of course, you know, they have, you know, in their Constitution is, you know, the quote unquote, right to abortion. You know, so God responds by granting we're bringing grace into places where it's needed. And if they begin there, if they started there, you know, via Cardinal O'Connor. It's a response to that, to that prompting of the Holy Spirit, which is kind of like, you know, again, it's it's wonderful to see God's hand, his his mercy and his grace at work in an area where there is a problem. Like it's like a it's a tangible, visible response to something just like the CFR. You know, CFR is are also and they were also a response to a different type of, you know, thing that was going on. And, you know, again, it's like, well, this responding grace is such a beautiful thing. I don't know where where we're at with that. I was kind of fished around, you. |
| Betsy | Know, it was really enlightening. Especially as talking about the nuns as a witness with all of this secular, you know, horror going on. We have just about a couple of minutes left. What would you say to somebody who wants to get into your line, both from the faith perspective and from a journalism perspective? |
| Jeffrey Bruno | Well, it's going to be maybe an unorthodox answer, but I'll just I'll say this. I will say the first thing is discern, pray, get into a state of grace, daily communion, adoration, rosary, whatever you can do. Whatever's within your, you know, your your ability or capabilities, you know, abandon yourself to him first off and see if this is something that you feel called to. If you if you do like and again, it's like you're not necessarily going to get the lightning bolt answer. It's not like that. But if you do feel yourself drawn to it, that's an indication. You know, it's like if especially if you're, you know, prayerful about it and you feel yourself drawn into it, okay. You know, that's definitely a good place to start. There is never been a better time to start in this line of work because now the, kind of independent journalism is something that's becoming a reality for people. So you don't necessarily have to work for anybody else. You can work for yourself. You can start your own Substack, you can run your own social media. You can do your own thing. Again, I just would, you know, put Christ at the very center of it all, always. And then the one thing is, is that if you do feel drawn to it and call to it and you start learning about it and everything, learn everything, soak it all in and learn from the best that are out there. If you want to learn to take pictures that I always told people, and this is the way I learned, is look at great pictures and take a lot of pictures. One teaches you how to use the camera, one sharpens your eye and before you know it, the two start to come together and you'll get good at it. So that's kind of a practical tip. And then the thing is, I said, you know, with the way it is today, we have such an overabundance of content, kind of like in the world. And with AI, there's even more and more content. This is a real chance for, you know, great work to stand out. It's like I think that, you know, photography is a particularly interesting genre because it's real people, it's real moments. It's real events, a separate thing. So it's a it is an opportunity. But I'll, I'll just say one last thing. Photographers. Right. And writers take pictures. You got to do the both because the two of them together. Super powerful. |
| Betsy | Well, you have really enriched our world by your amazing photography and words. And make sure to sign up for Jeffrey Bruno's Substack by visiting Words and Pictures by Jeffrey Bruno. Thank you so much for joining us. It was such a delight, Betsy. |
| Jeffrey Bruno | Thank you very much. God bless. |
| Betsy | Welcome back to conversations with consequences, where I am joined by TCA Chaplain Monsignor Roger Landry, to talk about one of the most important and beautiful feasts of the year, the assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Can you tell us about the history of this? It dates back many, many centuries. |
| Msgr Landry | So the first Christians, Betsy, celebrated that at the end of earthly life, Mary was brought up body and soul into heaven. When Pope Pius the 12th in 1950 declared the dogma of the Assumption of Our Lady, it wasn't as if it were new. And in that document he traced all the fathers of the church going back into time. Some of the various scriptural references, which are indirect but nevertheless suggestive of Mary's eventual place, crowned with the stars of heaven at her son's eternal right side. And so the tradition of the church was always there. We celebrated last week the feast of Saint Dominic, and we remember that Our Lady revealed the Rosary to Saint Dominic. And as part of the church's prayer for centuries we would meditate on Mary's Assumption and then her coronation in heaven, which has been part of Catholic piety from the beginning. And then, at the request of many bishops all around the world, who were saying against some people who said, we have no proof of Mary's being in heaven because Scripture doesn't say it explicitly. Pope Pius the 12th decided to write the document and declare infallibly the dogma of Mary's Immaculate Mary's Assumption in the heaven, 96 years after his predecessor, Pius tonight had declared the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. And so we've been celebrating it solemnly, not just since 1950. Over the last 76 years, we've been celebrating it from before it was officially declared a dogma. But it is a wonderful day, first, in which we celebrate Our Lady, that at the end of earthly life the church has never pronounced, whether she died or whether she just fell asleep. But honestly, the case is much greater that she died just like her son did. And then at a certain time period after her death, she was assumed taken up by God in other words, not by her own power, not just her soul, but also her body to her eternal Son's right side in heaven, whatever that means. Once we get into that state. So it's first about Mary. And if we're ever going to be super excited about anybody's winning any triumph, let's just think about our favorite sports team winning the championship. We should be all that more happy about Mary's triumph in life. This is the mother that God the Father chose for his son, and that son from Calvary chose for you and me. Super excited about Mary. The second is it anchors our soul in the clouds to use the image of the letter to the Hebrews, that Mary's assumption is a sign of what God wants to happen to us after we die. We're going to be judged immediately. But eventually there's going to be a general resurrection when will be reunited with our bodies. And God wants us body and soul, like Mary, is now eventually to be at his right side and hers too, and heaven. And so it's a feast about heaven, in which we recalibrate our interior compass toward the things that are going to last forever. The things that Mary always sought. And so, like the ascension of Jesus normally in the month of May. So the assumption in, August is that time in which we're contemplating heaven. And then third, and lastly, it's an opportunity for us to learn from Mary that road to heaven, right? That path with her, to be raised up by the Lord, to have a heart that contemplates God's words like she did, to have, will that seeks to do whatever the Lord himself asks, which was Mary's valedictory address at the wedding feast of Cana. Do whatever he tells you that we look to Mary as the great disciple, as the teacher, about how to do the apostolate, as somebody who intercedes for us now so that we might receive everything her son wishes to give us. And so that's why the assumption is so important. |
| Betsy | Why is it the Eastern Church calls it the Dormition of Mary? But why is that so much more prominent? And we don't use that term that much. |
| Msgr Landry | So Dormition is a little confusing, right? Daughter Mary in Latin and in Italian. In most of the romance language, it means to sleep. We have a dormitory, for example, where we go to sleep, and on the early Christian graves in the first centuries they would say, like in your case, Elizabeth dorm eating party, that she's sleeping in peace because she is going to be reawakened one day to be fully alive with the Lord. And her body will be sort of up from where we've placed it, etc.. So the the eastern always talked about the Dormition, that she fell asleep and she was reawakened and taken body and soul. We in the West just use the term death more frequently, all the way up until the 1700s. But Saint Alphonsus Liguori, the great founder of the Redeemed Trust, whose feast was a couple of weeks ago at the beginning of August, he argued theologically that because Mary had been free from all stain of original sin from the first moment of her conception, and that death was a consequence of sin, Mary would never have died, and so she just would have closed her eyes as if she was fallen asleep, and then the next time she opened them should just continue on in life. Assumed by father, son and Holy Spirit to heaven. But I've always found that week, as much as I love Saint Alphonsus and most of the saints and the doctors over the course of the century had argued that Mary had died. After all, Jesus, the blessed fruit of her womb, was totally sinless, too, and he died on Golgotha. So it's not incompatible that Mary herself would have died at the end of her life. The church doesn't take, make a pronouncement on it. It just says at the end of earthly life, whether she just fell asleep or whether she died for a minute or for a few days, for example, like her son before she was raised and assumed, we don't know and we don't have to know. What we do know is that she's at Jesus's right side, where she's interceding for us. And as Saint John Paul the Second wrote in his beautiful document, the mother of the Redeemer, Mary reigns in heaven by serving that of her. To reign is to serve, and she's interceding and praying for us so that we will be able to follow her son, who is the way, all the way back to the place where he's gone to prepare not just for Mary, but for everyone who lives and dies in him. |
| Betsy | It's a great explanation of that whole Dormition issue that I've been wondering about for years. So thank you. And thank you for helping us to celebrate this beautiful feast. |
| Msgr Landry | Happy solemnity of the assumption. Likewise, Betsy, to you and to all our listeners. |
| Betsy | Thank you for seeing. Welcome to conversations with consequences. Now on EWTN radio. I'm your host, Betty Fentress. |
| Leigh Sneed | And I'm Lee Sneed. |
| Betsy | And we are very happy to have a friend of the show back with us today. Erica Keoki, Catholic mother, professor and author of The Rights of Women Reclaiming a Lost Vision Catholic Ideas for a Secular World. And Erica, we're so excited to chat with you about your upcoming conference happening next month in Rochester, New York. A Better way Forward for women. Thanks for joining us today. |
| Erika Bachiochi | Thanks so much for having me. Always. Good to see you too. |
| Betsy | So the conference really wraps in this monumental year we're in as a nation, a 250th celebration. But you have a different take on what's also happening as a celebration to commemorate. Tell us about why this conference is happening in September on this date. |
| Erika Bachiochi | Yeah. So I am always a person of kind of hope and, always trying to look forward to build a new, especially, you know, with the work of the Holy Spirit being present at all times and all places. And so I, often worry about those of our friends who despair of the American founding, despair of the American project. And I say we keep building on the good and make corrections, you know, to those things that weren't so good. And the same could be true for, the early, you know, for the women's movement as a whole and the early women's movement that was founded, you know, at Seneca Falls in, 1848 and then held several national conventions in the years that followed, including a 20th anniversary in 1870. And so we are commemorating that movement in the hopes of kind of reclaiming the women's movement as a whole that, as we all know, has gone, dreadfully astray in many, important ways. And so, as someone who studies the cause of women's rights, as a legal theorist, from a Catholic perspective, who has just written this book and has seen take shape, around me and among friends and peers and scholars, a real sort of need, I think, to come out of all of our individual work and the good work that each of the speakers is doing, and kind of come together in solidarity to present an alternative vision for women than the one that is kind of hegemonic and progressive feminism, and to basically take a woman, take the movement back. So to speak. And so that's what we're doing, in Rochester in mid September. And, we are filling up fast, but definitely have room for people, who might like to come join us. |
| Leigh Sneed | That's great. I'm just I'm looking forward. I'm lucky enough to be able to find time my schedule to attend the conference. I'm looking so forward to seeing, you know, people I've known for a long time, people who I have now, I know through Substack and Substack, I'm still sort of figuring out, but I am obsessed with it. And I love fair dispensations, and I love all the different women who are contributing and the style of the writing and the conversation that really mutual, like exchange of ideas that I see on Substack. Did your Substack success have something to do with the idea for having this conference? |
| Erika Bachiochi | Yeah. So in a way, I mean, fair disputations for those who don't know, is an online journal that I started, and brought Sabrina Segal Otto on very quickly to be our editor. It's, started Abigail Adams Institute, which is kind of a, a humanistic, institute that serves Harvard. We then we're kind of brought into the school for Civic and Economic Thought and Leadership at Arizona State University. When I created there, I was brought on as a professor of practice to teach a course called Women and Rights in Western Political Thought, and was asked to kind of found an initiative there, on women and civic life and thought. And so fair deputations is now within this kind of civic education program that's there, at ASU as one of these great civic institutes that that are, you know, growing up and all of the kind of public universities in, red and purple states trying to reclaim kind of civic education for our country. And so, in part, it's like there's all this great, work that, authors of their dissertations are doing, those who are contributing. And then there's also this time when our country is looking at trying to rehabilitate civic education, and it seems as though the space for women is taken up by those who, you know, aren't so crazy about the American founding first and foremost, but then also try to downplay some of the real beautiful truths that the early Americans, rights movement set forth in its own Declaration of Sentiments and resolutions. I mean, one of the most incredible things as a scholar is to see that there are those who, you know, want to bring attention to the declaration for some reasons. And then also just basically, don't even showcase the resolutions aspect, which is literally grounding, women's rights and natural law. It's quoting Blackstone, William Blackstone, for the proposition that, you know, all law needs to be grounded in the eternal law and that God made us equal, obviously, and different, but equal in dignity and therefore, you know, goes on to make resolutions about, about the with those claims. So I just think it's like sort of a time when it makes sense to begin again and sort of as I've said many times now, is like a phoenix to see a phoenix rising from the ashes. That is really modern feminism, I think in terms of it's, you know, seeing abortion rights as kind of a sin qua non as like, you know, having transgenderism come and really become really part and parcel of progressive feminism, which is so odd to me. And so what for disputations has done is really bring together like kind of the heroic terfs those who have, you know, across the pond have really pushed back against, transgender ideology, as radical feminists and then has brought together Catholics who and Christians and other, you know, nonbelievers who on this side of the pond to are interested in really kind of forging ahead with, with a robust anthropology that makes sense of who we are as human beings, as who we are as women, as as we are, as individuals are keeping that tension together. And so so I try to do really good intellectual work to reground advocacy for women who, I should say, because sometimes people say, why do we need advocacy for women? Because of, I think, two things. One is women's natural vulnerability. Because of our, you know, men's superior strength, women's, being, you know, relatively weaker than men in most of, most, all cases. And then also, of course, the vulnerability that comes with childbearing plus and the important plus is good is important is like as Catholics, it's Genesis three, it's the fall. You know, the way in which the way in which men and women were supposed to serve one another gets all screwed up and disordered. And part of that, as people have seen throughout all time, that we could quote all sorts of great people like Newman and Augustine, etc., is that and Genesis itself is that man content to laud over women and be really of harm to women. And so therefore we need especially for women who don't have good men around them. We need advocacy for women. And we see this so much in our day with pornography, prostitution, sex trafficking, surrogacy. And then I would include also abortion, of course. And and you know, trans the threat of trans identifying men and women's spaces. So there's a lot of places where women need advocates today. |
| Leigh Sneed | And just to back up for a little clarification for our listeners who might not know about this movement in the UK, the turf movement, could you tell me what that is and what that acronym stands for? |
| Erika Bachiochi | Sure. Yeah. So trans exclusive, radical feminist for the first. It's funny, some people, some Catholics who, you know, aren't students of of the cause of women's rights tend to think radical feminism means like the most radical of feminists. And so those say, who are the ones who are pushing aside, you know, women's women as embodied, you know, biologically different from men or some other radicals in terms of abortion. But what's interesting about radical feminists, the way I would describe them is that they actually take seriously the fall. They don't call it the fall, but they take seriously. Men and women embody differences, and then they just see the fall as like the constant state. So men are always kind of the violent aggressors and women are always the victims. Obviously, those things are true in some cases. And so then you need to respond to them. But that's what a radical feminist is. And so these terfs who are also call themselves gender critical feminists, are basically pushing up, pushing back against the idea that a woman can be kind of anything. You know, any anyone can claim the the status or the, you know, the word woman based on their own interior feelings and the turf saying, no, it is a biological status. Actually, it's a reproductive status. It's, you know, the it's it's, you know, the fact that women have the large gametes and produce a large gametes in their body and are capable of childbearing, and that makes women vulnerable and therefore there ought to be protections. And so Catholics and radical feminists actually agree on a lot. What's fascinating about radical feminist, too, is that there's all sorts of pushback against things like the pill and abortion and prostitution and pornography. So the women in the 1980s who allied with some Christians on pornography were radical feminists. And I would just put just one more thing, because I think it's been so awesome to see, is that we have in, after disputations, a bunch of different kind of debates and dialogs between radical feminists and Catholic theologians or philosophers on the nature of sex, on the nature of this kind of agreement. And so what it's caused the radical feminist to do is go and read documents like militaristic, The Totem of John Paul the Second and say, wait a second. I had no idea that Catholicism kind of got these kind of questions at the core. And just to bring my own story in here is that I, too, was on the other side of this question and then came to read John Paul the Second and was so alive. And like I was so amazed that this Catholic could understand kind of the core problems really impacting women. It really got me to start thinking in a serious way about Catholicism. And, you know, hopefully it's doing the same for some of our readers as well. |
| Betsy | I just wanted to put a plug in that EWTN Journey home just ran a piece on Erica's conversion story where she really goes into this. It's a beautiful, beautiful segment. I wanted to ask, we just had this tragic tragedy this week in Massachusetts where they signed a bill allowing abortion up to birth. And so that's kind of the antithesis of what's going on with your movement. But tell us a little bit. I know there's a platform that you have a list of things on your website for the conference where you talk about all the things that you agree on, that you want to promote. Can you go through a few of those for us? |
| Erika Bachiochi | Yeah. So, I actually am a resident Massachusetts. I was invited by the Boston Globe to give a statement which they did not quote. But yeah, it's a real kind of abomination, as we've seen in many of the kind of the bluish of blue states that they think they have to, you know, move forward all the way toward, you know, abortion on demand with no restrictions, with no oversight, you know, done by anyone, not even medical personnel. You know, it's just it's a it's like the wild West. And we see this and surrogacy, we see this in IVF. And it's kind of a horror that women aren't seeing this. Therefore the need for something, like our movement. So yes, we are creating, our invitation, which you could find on our website, A Better Way Forward for women.org puts all of this into perspective or in the, context. Excuse me, of the 250th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence and then basically makes claims, which of course, we know from our own history that there are men and women who called our own founders and called our own country, people in our own country to sort of have honor that honor, you know, that statement, but also find the complete expression of the truth that we are all created equal. And I think obviously, we see that in slavery. And then we see that in the civil rights movement and the women's rights movement. And so one of the things that we say is that we, you know, all share in equal dignity and that that makes us responsible to one another and to, for one another, to one another, that there's an interdependence at the core of and that rights and responsibilities are always interdependent. And that was true with the founding generation. But sometimes things are taken out of context, are pulled, and we have this idea on both left and right now that really radical autonomy was there from the very start, when if you look at the great legal cases, if you look at, you know, the work of constitutional law and in founding documents that we that human laws always under understood to be grounded in eternal truths, that truth, the American founding. It's also true in the early women's movement. So that's kind of what we're building upon. So in the statement then we talk about injustices, you know, to the human person, including the child in the womb and also to to women, to men, to families, etc.. So I'll read one of them. We're working on these, and we're also writing resolutions that we will then sign and, and proclaim in public, not giving the details out about that quite yet, but the very first of these injustices is that it is unjust for children to be poisoned or dismembered as they develop in the safety of their mothers wombs, to be chemically or surgically castrated in their formative years, or for adults to place their own desires ahead of the needs for children, the needs of children. And then just, you know, to make sure that there's an understanding of, like, the other side of that, which makes us, you know, advocates for women as well as children as well as the whole vulnerable. Another one of the injustices is it is unjust for women to bear all responsibility for pregnancy and childbearing or for free for for society to champion those who are unencumbered by responsibilities as the standard bearers of equality. And so really trying to push, you know, aside that idea that either equality or freedom are sort of best encompassed by sort of this radical liberal idea of autonomy, where, you know, we are each kind of born, not born on our own, and take care of ourselves as that were. As Hobbes, Thomas Hobbes says, mushrooms growing up on of our own accord, rather than that we are born into families that we always need each other, that we depend on each other for all goods and life, and that that we are then responsible for one another. Of course. Lee, your husband Carter has been incredibly articulate about this. These great truths of the human person that are just so basic. If we just look around and see how it is that we depend upon one another all the time. So it's really bringing that core insight of interdependence and the way in which we need each other, that we belong to one another, and that we also must serve one another, especially the vulnerable, into the core of this declaration of interdependence, as we're calling it. |
| Leigh Sneed | That's amazing, because I was just thinking, this is a really great, segue, Erica, because I was just thinking about people. I mean, a lot of people are doing a lot of great work on this topic of interdependence. And, you know, a lot of it's rooted in McIntyre and all these other things. But we've got so, like, put my husband a man, Carter, Chris Keys or Carl Truman or some people come to mind. But then I think about you. I think about Angela Franks, I think about Leila Brusca, Sergeant, and is there I mean, we're having this women's declaration, this women's conference. Is there something different that you see women scholars bringing to the conversation of interdependence that maybe men don't? I mean, we're talking about world's greatest minds here. You know, I hate to pit anyone against each other, but is there something special that women bring? A different aspect, a different just anything that separates their work from the work of, say, their male colleagues? |
| Erika Bachiochi | That's a really great question. Not sure I, can answer it so quickly because I am a great admirer of all of the of the men and the work of the men that you mentioned, and we are kind of simpatico and sort of depend on each other for our work. As you mentioned. McIntyre, I think all of us very much are in the line of Alister McIntyre and working there. I mean, I think, I guess I would say what occurs to me as someone who has studied, deeply the work of Mary Wollstonecraft, that that she, as a woman who was, you know, the oldest of six children, had a difficult situation in her own family, then really cared for as best she could. Her younger brothers and sisters, she, you know, had a have very different insights about interdependence and about kind of the duties of care that we owe to one another. Then the men at the same time when she was writing. So, of course, you know, she's talking about natural rights. John Locke was talking about natural rights, but when you read them, you could say superficially, oh, there's some similarities here. But then when you actually go in and read the text, you see that there are great differences, that Mary Wollstonecraft gets very clearly that we are in relation to one another always. So yes, we are individuals, but we are also always in relation to one another's mothers, sisters, daughters, friends, citizens. And so that relationality is part and parcel. I think of just how women see the world. And it's something that as Catholics we know men are very much called to, but it just is something that's more basic, more basic to it, it who it is we are as human beings, and it may just be the basic fact of menses, so that each month from the time of 12 or 13 or 14, a girl realizes that she has the capacity for motherhood. And, you know, that is a great capacity, but it's also one that is, you know, has, I think, makes a lot of girls very fearful at this point. Right? Because there aren't a lot of people who are shepherding women along in that way so that they can see that they can both really, as all of us have done, you know, take very seriously their great sort of privilege of being a woman. And this great capacity, but then also do other great and noble work in the world and contribute to the public square or into our, in our, you know, homes and our communities. And that's what we're trying to kind of hold together in a way that I think both the far left and the far right are sort of very much splitting apart. |
| Betsy | So Lee mentioned some other people that are going to be featured at the conference. I wanted to specifically talk about people from Britain. So I know Ayaan Hirsi Ali is going to some of joining virtually. And you have the Harrington, you have Louise Perry. I'm particularly interested in how the American women forged this alliance with the British women. And the First Things cover story this month is Tomo Phobia by Mary Harrington, where she talks about the discovery of natural law. And so can you talk about that alliance and how these women are moving toward a sort of mystic view? I mean, they're probably all on different pathways. |
| Erika Bachiochi | Yeah, yeah. So there is a way in which the Anglo American Alliance is a very strong one. We also have sort of Australians in the next to Louise is now actually relocated to Australia, which is her, part of, you know, her background. So these are great friends of mine. I actually in terms of Ayaan Hirsi Ali, we just met, last week where I had the opportunity of interviewing her for this conference. So we'll be showing that prerecorded interview there. And she has become certainly an ally. But with regard to Mary and Louise, who are great friends of mine, I guess I will just say in terms of the story, which we tell a little bit, I'm, going to be on Socrates in the city with Mary Harrington, which should be coming out soon. I found it, a couple weeks ago when I was in London. She contacted me out of the blue, hearing that I, had, the rights of women. I think it was probably in production. I don't think it was out yet. And then she went on to be sort of, I would say my very best reader, reading every single footnote with great interest. Well, and so and then when she went on to write Feminism Against Progress, she would send me her chapters as she would write them. And she's an incredibly brilliant not only woman, but also really fast writer. And so they would kind of come out from her great mind and they'd arrive in my email box. And then I had the opportunity to to read and really think with her about these things. So we over the course of kind of sharing ideas, sharing, intellectual life together, we become very dear friends and, and we push each other in different ways, right, to think about different different things. And so I am yeah, delighted to see that she has found Thomas Aquinas and the important, aspects of, I guess I would say, formal and final causality. And what that really means is just asking questions about who we are and what our end is. And these questions are ones that someone like a Mary Wollstonecraft really understood very implicitly in talking about who are the what are the kinds of beings women are, well, more rational creatures. And what are they? We're rational creatures who are embodied and therefore potentially always, you know, daughters. But then also potentially mothers, wives, etc. but then we also are destined for eternity. And that's really clear in her work. And so what I was saying before that Mary Wollstonecraft is a much better enlightenment figure than these others who kind of cut off very much these kinds of questions of formal and final cause that Mary and and those of us who are trying to just bring back to the question of like, what is a woman? What is a woman for? What is a human being for? These are the kinds of things that we already see in, someone like Mary Wollstonecraft's work, which is why I'm, you know, in my book, The Rights of Women trying to retrieve that work. So we are all sort of doing different things. Everyone has very different gifts. And what's great about this time is I think about sort of theories of change. My theory of change is that you have to have women in all different disciplines. You have to have or people in all different disciplines, in all different kind of realms of life. So some of us are in the academy, like myself and Angela Franks and Abigail family, Rachel Colman, others. Some are journalists, like Mary Harrington and Louise Perry, who are incredibly gifted journalists and then others are advocates and activists. And all of those layers are starting now to, I think, a line in a really important way so that you can start to see a movement forming. So that was already happening. And so now we're just really bringing it together in person, so that we can, you know, fortify friendships but also fortify one another and give kind of an affirmative case for a new vision of what it is to be a woman out to the world, one that is pro marriage, pro-life, pro-family, and that, you know, really speaks to kind of the great good that women bring to the public square, especially when they're well formed. So we have Freya India coming to talk about kind of what's going on with Gen Z women. And then we have a couple of different women kind of matriarchs who have been forming women and schools and other places to really respond to her and talk about what it is, the formation of women. What do girls and women need, to become, you know, women of excellence in any sphere of their life, in the homes, in their homes and workplaces and to contribute to the public square as well. |
| Leigh Sneed | You know, when I read, I mean, it's something that I know, but when when I read other articles that say are not sort of in this sort of crowd and, and you just you're just hammered over the idea that there's no sense of teleology, like it has been completely abandoned. And again, you know that. But then when you just read it today or, you know, it's it's just so it's so striking. And so I love the idea that you, you really want to, you know, bring that back and that the other women you're working with are dealing with that too. And do you feel like it's mostly an effort to make that more real, like a real idea, to explain it more fully to the friendly readers and listeners? Or do you hope that I mean, what are your dreams like for the future for that? Like, how are you outreaching to people who have abandoned that, who've grown up with it, who don't even have any sense of that kind of classical idea of like, you know, there is actually an end that were meant for. And I will make it a double question by asking, what do you see for the future of the conference? |
| Erika Bachiochi | Yeah, yeah. So what we're trying to do, I think, is speak to a really broad audience. And so all of the, you know, videos will go up on online, not the Q&A, of course, because we want to have great robust discussion and debate. There's a lot of different people coming kind of from all different, you know, that we have kind of people on the center left, people on the center right. If those words mean anything anymore. And so really trying to bring together kind of a great swath of people who are interested in this, I think there are people who are coming with questions, for sure. And then there are people who sort of see the vision very clearly and are part of, you know, the those who are building it. You know, one of the things people keep asking me is like, well, what are you going to do in the future? What are you going to do? And, and I have all sorts of ideas that. Yeah, but there's, you know, there's there's what I take great kind of hope and confidence in is the great work that the women who are coming to speak are already doing. So we have concurrent panels, and one of the panels is a health is a panel on health care. And I'll tell you, the women who are coming to this panel are doing incredible work on women's health. And don't we all know how important the work in women's health is? You know, because for so long we've been just relying on just putting women on the putting girls on the pill, having sort of this abortion back to, you know, sexual revolution. Be like the way that we all think about, you know, the world and how we exist in it. And it's really I think, and a lot of my work has been arguing this, is that by relying in that on those sort of technologies and that way we have not done the great work of understanding the human body of, really loving, you know, the female body in particular, loving what she's capable of and then going to root causes when there are issues so that we can restore the health of women's fertility. But that, of course, women's fertility is not all there is about a woman. Right. And so I think it's kind of trying to really frame, again, a positive vision that has been kind of understood in all these and all these women's lives really independently and then that they've come together. So one of the most striking things that I think you'll see, if, you know, the women's stories is that many, many of these women, not all for sure, but many of the women have come out of progressive feminism. So that's true of me now, 30 years ago. That's true of Abigail's family. She's told her story. That's certainly true of Louise and Mary and true of others as well. And so having been there and kind of seen that, but then made their own independent critiques, given their own, you know, backgrounds, their own intellectual life, etc., and then be able to turn and say, wait, women deserve something more. And then to build that intellectual framework, that does call upon, you know, the great, the great sort of eternal truths of the past, but also has to answer to new pressing problems in technology. In the, you know, the moral landscape, we find ourselves in. And then I think women have always been those who have offered great solutions, in times of real crisis. So and just trying to, as John Paul the second said, really try to humanize our culture. And that's what we're really trying to do as well. |
| Betsy | To learn more about Erica Baker, Jackie and this amazing conference taking place in just about a month in Rochester, New York, make sure you visit A Better Way Forward for women.org. To learn more about the Catholic Association, visit the Catholic Association. Talk to. Follow everything we do in radio, TV, print, online and in our local communities. |
| Leigh Sneed | Thank you. Okay, thanks. Bye bye. |