Ep. 386 Fr. Dave Tomaszycki on Fulton Sheen’s On the Demonic & Dr. Gregory Popcak on Postpartum Mental Health

Conversations with Consequences

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Episode Description

As we await Archbishop Fulton Sheen’s beatification, Father Dave Tomaszycki joins us to discuss On the Demonic, which he compiled from Sheen’s talks and writings. Father Dave shares how he brought together the book Sheen intended to write and why its insights remain timely. Keeping our focus on Christ, he explores the spiritual defenses Sheen emphasized: the blood of Jesus, the name of Jesus, and the Blessed Mother, along with Eucharistic adoration and the Holy Hour.

Later, Dr. Gregory Popcak discusses postpartum depression and psychosis and introduces his free e-book offering practical, faith-based support for families. He addresses the guilt and unrealistic expectations mothers can face, explains why seeking professional care is compatible with faith, and explores how husbands, families, and parishes can help. We also discuss the difference between healthy sacrifice and neglecting our own needs, reminding mothers that they do not have to struggle alone.

Catch the show every Saturday at 7amET/5pmET on EWTN radio!

Bios

Father Dave Tomaszycki is a priest of the Archdiocese of Detroit and pastor of St. Peter Parish in Mount Clemens, Michigan. Ordained in 2016, he previously served as secretary to the Archbishop of Detroit. His interest in Fulton Sheen began while studying at Ave Maria University and reading Life of Christ. He compiled and edited On the Demonic, published by Emmaus Road Publishing.

Dr. Gregory Popcak is the founder and executive director of the Pastoral Solutions Institute, which provides Catholic pastoral counseling through CatholicCounselors.com. The author of more than 20 books, he helps individuals, couples, and families apply their Catholic faith to everyday challenges. Together with his wife, Lisa, he hosts More2Life, a call-in advice program on EWTN Radio.

The following transcript is machine generated.

Episode 386 Transcript

Ashley	Welcome back to conversations with consequences now on EWTN radio. I'm your host, Ashley McGuire, and.
Betsy	I'm Betsy Fentress and.
Ashley	Today, as interest continues to build around the life and legacy of the venerable Fulton Sheen as we await his upcoming beatification of the soon to be blessed, we're diving into a project decades in the making, a book Sheen explicitly intended to write back in 1974 but was never able to complete before his passing. Joining us again is Father Dave Tomsic, who uncovered this forgotten piece of history while working on his doctoral thesis and has now brought to life. The compilation is titled On the Demonic Spiritual Warfare in the Modern World. Father Dave, welcome back to the show.
Father Dave Tomaszycki	Thank you. It's great to be back on.
Ashley	So in your opening charge to readers, you urge them not to read on the demonic for mere entertainment or even just as a school book for information, but in prayer with your eyes on Jesus. And I have to say, I find the writings of Fulton Sheen so incredibly powerful that I was almost a little bit afraid to read what he had to say about about the diabolical. But why is reading a work about spiritual warfare with a prayerful disposition so crucial?
Father Dave Tomaszycki	Yeah, so. So in the end, like, the devil is stronger than we are if we're by ourselves, but is not stronger than Jesus. So if we're with Jesus, we're good to go. But if we're not, if we're not living a holy life, if we're not, if we're falling into sin, we're not free from the sacraments. Our eyes are not on Jesus.
Father Dave Tomaszycki	And then we're just going to get in the devil for fun. Like, now he's going to have his way with us. You gotta stay with the Lord.
Betsy	So, father, Archbishop Sheen announced in 1974 his intention to write this book, but because of his death, it never came to fruition in his in his lifetime. What was it like personally for you to step into history and decide that you were going to comb through the archives, walk us through how that process was for you and how long it took and editorially, how you made the decision. Because he was so prolific. I think he wrote over, what, 60 books, what to include and what not to include.
Father Dave Tomaszycki	Yeah, well, first and foremost, it was daunting. So so, you know, he he wrote so much so in 1974, it's just a little blurb and in his book, Those Mysterious Priests, that he intended to write a book on the demonic. Then he died in 1979. That's five years later. I mean, in the 40s, like Fulton Sheen was putting out almost two books per year. So. So it's like, was he not able to because he had his health issues? He was in the hospital a lot in 1977. Was he not able to or did he just decide not to do it? You know, and I don't know I don't know. And if he decided not to do it, why am I picking this up? You know, I'm going where angels don't dare tread. So there was a lot of prayer, discernment. And I first really got the idea in 2016, and I kind of put it on the book, the back shelf. Like, man, I don't know if I want it, if I want to deal with this. And then I prayed about it for years. Then in 2020, I really dove into it. And I was I was in contact always with my spiritual director. I talked to Peter as an exorcist here and, my mentor and everyone, and they all encouraged me like, no, you know, you stay close to Jesus. He's stronger than the devil. The world really could use his philosophy and his theology on the demonic. So then I dove into it, and my first hope was that I would go to the archives and I would find a manuscript just sitting there. Boom. Hey, print me. Then you take the manuscript, you take it to the publisher, you're done. That wasn't the case. But as I combed through his archives, I found just so much stuff about the demonic. And it was prophetic. So it was prophetic when he said it. Well, now it's come true, you know? So. So I think the world needs it more today than it did back then. So I wonder if maybe that's why the book came out, you know, 50 years after, after he said he would, he would do it as opposed to that. I don't know. But I wonder that I think that, you know, perhaps putting it together. So, so what to include, what not to include. And so that that became very tricky. So, in the 70s, he was giving a lot of retreats and it wasn't really so much a bunch of retreats. It was more like one retreat that he was giving over. And over, but he did not use notes. So, so, like he goes on these beautiful tangents, but he doesn't always go on the same tangents. So if you were to just republish all of his talks, it'd be a lot of the same stuff. Be very repetitious. Write, publish one talk. What are you going to miss? Some awesome stuff from the other ones. So I would go through I take five talks usually. That's usually what I would find, five recorded talks. I'd have them all, typed up. If I typed them up myself, it would take six hours to type up a 30 minute talk. Others I had hired out and whatnot. And, then you got to go through and make the correction to make sure that's really is his words. And then then I would I find, I find that the chapter, the talk that I like the template best, I like this flow best and I use that as the template. And then, I would just go and mark through all the themes and all the different talks I laid out, lay them out on my bedroom floor and on my day off to take the whole day to splice one chapter together. So if I was moving really fast, I could do about a chapter in a month, but it was usually slower than that. So as far as what to what to have in the book, what not to have when I was trying to do was have all of his thoughts in the book, like all of his thoughts on the demonic in the book. But again, like he does say his thoughts over and over again. There's different retreats. Some talks are a lot of like and so are all of his words in the book with no, of course not. But I think I got all his thoughts, you know, by the end. So during Covid, I didn't go into the archives myself. They were sending me articles from the archives once called was lifted. I was in the archives myself. I was going through things. And by that time, the book was almost done and just going through like, okay, like, oh, I found something new and oh, well, that's not actually new. I got all that in the book, you know? So by the end it's like, no, I think I got all of his thoughts in the book.
Betsy	I know you have an interesting vocation story. As a former journeyman plumber, what was the first what did you ever hear about Fulton Sheen as a kid?
Father Dave Tomaszycki	A little bit, a little bit. I remember my dad talking about him a little bit. And then when I was probably in my late teens, we got a satellite dish. So now we had EWTN, and I don't know if I ever sat and watched him, but I remember him being on. I remember the name, I didn't I didn't know him well, but I had heard of him.
Ashley	You referenced how ahead of his time he was and how. Yeah, basically what he wrote has really come true. And I have to say, as somebody who's been reading a lot of Fulton Sheen lately, I'm just floored. Every single time I pick up any of his writings by the fact that he was writing this stuff 60, 70 years ago, in some cases, and it feels like he was writing it for this exact moment. And so I wanted to quote, well, let me step back, you one of the chapters he talks about, the four deaths of the church. And once again, getting back to my thing, that I was a little bit scared. I was like, oh, no, is the fourth death going to be now? And he says, it is now. And he talks about the, you know, the Reformation, the Muslim invasion and the, you know, round year 1000. But then he gets to now and again. I can't believe that he was writing this decades ago, because it must have almost seemed. Well, I know this didn't necessarily get published, but if you'll permit me, I'll read a little bit of what he says. He says, I believe we are now living at the end of Christendom, not the end of Christianity, the end of Christendom. Christendom is the political, economic, moral, social, and legal life of a nation as inspired by the gospel ethic. And then he gives a couple of examples, one of them being abortion, another being the breakdown of marriage. But again, I think this must have been long before people were really talking about the breakdown of marriage. I mean, now we talk about it and we study and we analyze it. But can you talk a little bit more about what he wrote about our current time and this so-called forth death of the church?
Father Dave Tomaszycki	Yeah. So he says, history in the church go, go through, an era about every 500 years. At the end of 500 years, there is a death. And it's interesting. He says. The church is not a continuing thing. It dies then. Then it rises again, just like the Lord himself. So, so these talks are from the early 70s, and he was talking about, like, we're worth beginning of, you know, the fourth era is dying. The fifth heir has not been born yet. So he says, like we're on a trapeze. So I think 50 years ago he was on one end of the trapeze. We are now on the other end of the trapeze. I think we're still like between the eras. But he was on one another. Trapeze were on the other end. And yeah, I've been really thinking a lot about that lately, so 50 years ago he was saying, hey, Christendom is dead. And now we're like, hey, you know what? I think Christendom might be dead, you know? But, but we still hope we're still holding on. And I see that it's something like, just as a pastor with a school, like, how many people go to our school? I'm at an old parish, a classic parish is almost 200 years old, which is awesome. But with that, there's a lot of oh, well, my kids go to the school. I went to school, my grandparents went to school. A lot of people fifth, fifth or even seventh generation at the school. Okay. So we're like, but do you believe do you believe in the Lord? You believe in the sacraments? Do you believe in anything the church teaches, or are we just living? And, you know, Christendom, which has run, which is now rotting away, which is gone and rotting away. And I think we're still trying to hold on to things that just aren't anymore. So, yeah, Fulton Sheen does say the sooner that we can realize, the sooner we can come up with, like, actual real solutions as opposed to holding on the past. So that's all. That's all stuff. Then that Sheen says. And one thing, when I give talks on the book, I try to get into the fifth era. So Fulton Sheen, talk about the death of the fourth era. He didn't get so much from the fifth era. But I think we're getting into the fifth era. So. So in my talks, I try to continue his thought. So it's interesting. The fourth era, the the first era, the attack was on Jesus himself. Because because they're trying to figure out is he God? Is he man? How many natures, how many persons? So the attacks were on Jesus himself. The second era was, when when they split the the Great Schism in 1054. Okay. Well, that's an attack on the vicar of Christ. So attack on Christ. Attack on the vicar of Christ. The third was the Protestant Reformation, where the body is scattered. Okay. So Christ the head, his vicar on earth, now the body, the fourth era is on the other, like abortion kills the other. The breakdown of marriage. We can't get along with the other, you know. So, the head, the body, the other. And now. So that could take us to the four eras. Now we're in a fifth era, and I think more and more the attack is on the self. So, abortion is always killing the other. It's always been hard to love the other transgenderism is attack on the self, or now we hate ourselves. So shame doesn't explicitly go there, although in another part he does talk about, with the breakdown of boundaries, they'll be like a unisex culture. So he does point to his era, but it doesn't get way into the fifth era. But that's kind of that's where I take it when I give talks on the book.
Ashley	And just to quickly follow up on that, as a priest, do you feel a little bit like maybe you mentioned that we're kind of like in between or nearing the end, beginning the new one. Do you also see, an aspect of the sort of rebirth, especially with all this talk about, you know, the revival of, of faith? I mean, people people are kind of simultaneously talking about declining numbers of people going to mass, but also this explosion of converts.
Father Dave Tomaszycki	Yeah. So I call them the core. Especially is especially when I look out in the congregation, like, who believes and where are the young families who are going to mass? I mean, there are young families who believe in the Lord. They're always at mass. So at a typical school, most, you know, at typical Catholic school, most families don't go to church. They just don't go. But there's a few who go and a few who believe, you know, so I call them the core. Overall, no, our church is not yet growing in numbers. Yeah, we get a lot of okay, but we have far more funerals, you know, so we're not growing in numbers. But I do think there's a core. And the core, it's at least getting stronger. The core, I think is actually growing in numbers, but it's at least getting stronger. And to me it's like that's that's who I want to work with. Because because, you know, when you love Christ, you're going to make other converts when you're lukewarm. What do we got? You know, so, so as a priest, I'm always trying to feed the people who believe. And they'll they'll make other converts. The ones you have to chase after. It takes so much energy and you don't get them anyway. You know.
Betsy	One of my favorite parts about reading Fulton Sheen is all of the writers that and books that he introduces me to and what what really struck me in the book that you edited was the number of sources Marx, Nietzsche, Freud, Dostoevsky, C.S. Lewis. And the big one was Rollo May, which my mother had that book, love and Will I was so I laughed out loud. I hadn't had anybody talk about that, but he was really in the moment of what the popular books were at the time that he might be able to use. How did he use literature and and even writings that he was opposed to, like Marx, for the greater good of explicating the demonic?
Father Dave Tomaszycki	Yeah. So especially earlier in his priesthood, he spoke and lot and wrote a lot about communism. So he he read a ton about communism. And you got to read the other side. You got to read the other side. I say he was a major league nerd. He read everything. He read everything. You know. Yeah. But so, so, so. But it's interesting because he would talk about how, and Thomas Aquinas points us out to how it takes a while for the philosophers to catch up. So the artists usually portray things that the philosophy that is happening that is in people's minds is being acting out. It takes a while for the philosophers to catch it and to describe it. So it's amazing how prophetic Sheen was. But most of his, his, his, prophetic works here in his prophetic writing are based on Dostoevsky, which is 100 years before him, Lord of the world, which is, you know, about 70 years before, before he was saying these things. So to be prophetic for the future, he's going back a century into time. So it's pretty. But he points out, it's not just, oh, what's the popular book of the month? What's what's the New York Times bestseller? Because most of that, there's nothing great there but the bookstore at last, because the not a greatness into it. So he goes back to great literature and it was fun. So this project took me so long, it took three years just to put together and then a year dealing with copyright law and all this stuff. So it was about, I mean, it was almost a decade where I had the thought in my mind, but about four and a half years of really working on it. Well, in four and a half years, as I'm waiting for this lawyer and the copyright for whatever, I time to do other stuff. So most stuff that he references here, I went back and I read myself, I read law in the world, I read The Brothers Karamazov, I read Crime and Punishment. He called something for Victor Hugo. I couldn't find it. So I read Lay Miserable whole book, 1300 pages. I read The Hunchback of Notre Dame. He's got this rare book, from around the turn of the 1900s, three conversations where it talks about the end of the world and and, yeah, the Pope Peter the second, all these things. I found a book, I read it, I got a copy of Rollo May's Love and Will, and I read the pertinent chapters. So it was really cool to go through and just, like, read what he was reading and see where his thoughts come from.
Betsy	And how do you think that he used that to talk about the demonic? I mean, I mean, the the Grand Inquisitor, that's a great scene that you have in your book, but do you think that he thought that sometimes it was easier to to show people how the demonic spirit works in the world by using other people's writing?
Father Dave Tomaszycki	Yes. So, there's a chapter in the book called In the End and it's, it's from it's an article he wrote for his Boston paper in 1969, where he goes through the Grand Inquisitor, three conversations. He touches upon Lord of the world. But yeah, he he presents these things and and they're beautiful. They're profound. But he also ties it in with, with Scripture and whatnot, too. So at the end of the chapter, called the Mystical Body of the Antichrist, there's a piece there from 1941 where he says how like the church is not optimistic about history, like history is going downhill. That's what that's what the book of revelation is, you know, the end times where you'd rather not be alive at that time. We know that Jesus wins, but but, history is is is going downhill quickly. So but yeah, he, I think literature does portray that best. And that's where he goes, and that's where he gets a lot of his ideas from.
Ashley	He talks about how the devil has so much power today because so few believe in him, acknowledge him. He writes, the devil is powerful today because few believe in him. God's definition of himself is I am who I am, the devil's definition of himself as I am, who am not. Which kind of ties into what we were talking about with this. The fourth death stemming out of people's apathy. Can you talk about, you know, if you were to put yourself in Fulton Sheen's mind today, if he were alive, what do you think are some of the things he would point out in our culture that we were we are blind to the work of the devil.
Father Dave Tomaszycki	Or point out in our culture, you're going to get me in trouble here, you know, so, so, you know, there's a number of things. One is like, we got to have our eyes fixed on Jesus. So it's one of the big things he points out is worldliness. And I think I think it's very easy for conservatives to go, oh, those liberals, you know, the, the nuns who dropped their habits and want to be identified with the world, they're those liberals are being worldly. Okay. Well, there's truth to that. But then I've seen on the other side where the conservatives fall into their own worldliness. And when I was the secretary to the archbishop, like how quickly, you know, conservative priests would, would sue the bishop if whatever, you know, for, for, for numerous things. And it's like, our Lord talks about like, you know, the Gentiles lord over each other, but it shall not be so among you to lawyer up and to try to defeat the bishop in the worldly realm. That's that's a form of worldliness, you know. So, so oftentimes we do have a, this idea of, oh, you know, the devil sets his traps for those people, but he doesn't set traps for me. No, he's got traps for all of us, you know? So that's that's one example. Another one. And this is where I get myself in trouble, but I it's just true. I found it very interesting in the years after September 11th, when everyone was worried about the Muslims, I heard someone I don't even remember who it was, just say, like, now that the fight isn't going to be with the Muslims, it's going to be with this whole LGBT plus plus, plus, plus, plus thing, you know? So when I go through the signs of the demonic love of nudity, violence and the loss of identity also, you know, he calls it schizophrenic identity, schizophrenic mentality. He calls it different things. And I look at the whole LGBT and then, then the how many genders we have now, just the, the breaking apart, how, how violent certain aspects of it are and the perversion, which is the love of nudity. I go, wow, they got they got the signs, the demonic in spades.
Betsy	So you reference in the book C.S. Lewis is warning about kind of the two poles that people, can get caught up in regarding devils and one is to disbelieve in them entirely and dismiss them, and the other is to have an unhealthy, obsessive fascination with them. So how did Archbishop Sheen walk that fine line between, not being obsessed and not thinking that the devil is real?
Father Dave Tomaszycki	Yeah. He kept pointing to Christ. He kept pointing to Christ. Yeah. We get distracted easily. He even says, like, reformers tend to reform the wrong thing. Like, for example, one example I've used in talks or even in a harmony was, with the Olympics at four years ago, whenever it was when they did that mockery of the Last Supper and there was that I think it was a how it went viral. But I, you know, call this number and complain right to this address and complain. And it's like, no, it's this is a demonic act, a demonic attack on the Eucharist. Do you think an angry letter is going to change the devil's mind? You know, if the devil is hitting on the Eucharist, our response is we need to love the Eucharist, get on our knees and adoration to our Lord. You know. So. So the last chapter of the book on the demonic is fighting the demonic with the Holy hour again, like we're not stronger if you just if you just learn more about the demonic. Well guess what the devil smarter than you are, you know, but the devil doesn't love the Lord, and that's what we have on him. So. So that's what we have to do. So. So. Yeah. Yeah. So he was he was always going right back to Jesus, always going to Jesus.
Ashley	Could you expand a little bit more about some of the. Well, the he he highlights three main weapons. Can you talk about those weapons and why it's so important for, for us to be armed and ready?
Father Dave Tomaszycki	Yeah, yeah. So the importance for us to be armed is that by ourselves, we're not stronger by ourselves. We lose every time. Jesus is stronger. So? So the weapons are the blood of Jesus. The name of Jesus. Mary, the mother of Jesus. And those are the three main weapons. When he gets into the cross of Jesus and adoration in the presence of Jesus. So it's just like Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus. So with the name, it's a short chapter. I wish he had said more about the name. I'm kind of surprised he didn't, but it's all I could find. Like a name makes someone or something present. When you call on the holy name of Jesus, like there's a presence there and our Lord, he's always present in battle formation. So she points out how everyone else came into the world to live. Jesus came into the world to die. We came to die for our sins. That's his whole mission. And then even that's what his name means. You know, the blood of Jesus. That is a beautiful chapter. He, he spoke a lot about the blood of Jesus in in the talks. You gave him the early 70s. So with that, I was able to get his theology of the blood. But in the recorded talks, he didn't say much about how we're fighting the devil with that. So in his archives, I found two sets of handwritten notes for talks you gave about defeating Satan through the blood of Christ. I was able to splice those together. Yeah. A very beautiful chapter. And then the last weapon against the demonic is Our Lady. So the chapter's made up primarily of a talk he gave in 1976. So just three years before he died, it was actually, August 6th of 1976, which is which is the anniversary of dropping the bomb on Hiroshima, which he mentions earlier in the book. But Our Lady was his favorite subject in 1976. He had, you know, 60 years for him to really, like, put his thoughts together, for his thoughts to mature. So you do see, like a complete synthesis of his very mature thoughts on Our Lady. But he said in preparing for that talk, he made some last connections between Our Lady and her fight with the demonic. So, one of his big things, especially with the Holy hour, is the hour in the Gospel of John. How God has the day of the devil has his hour within. The Lord says, can you not watch one hour with me? It's like, hey, I'm the Redeemer. We're taking it back. Well, Our lady shares in that hour or two, and he he goes to the wedding feast of Cana. You know, what is to me is to thee. My hour has not yet come. But, you know, like, if you want me to start my public ministry, then my hour comes. But what is to me is to me. You're sharing in my hour. And that's how she's our redeem tricks and mediate tricks and, and, and, guides us and fight the good fight with us.
Ashley	You had one little blip. You actually put in a book a picture of a like a note of one of his writings. And you said it was like, dear reader, can you help me? There was one word that you couldn't decipher. I'm dying to know. Has anybody cracked the code?
Father Dave Tomaszycki	I think we have, I think final in the book. I think we have. So. So, father Z put it on his blog a couple of times. So a bunch of people were trying. And then someone from Michigan. Someone who who, who I met before is the one who actually figured it out. So. So let's three things. One is, say the rosary. That's easy to read, the second statue that's easier to read. The third one is really hard. So we think it's a total like total pogrom. Which is your most beautiful mother? It's a, it's a hymn to Our Lady. And then prism, we think, is the next word. There's other writings where he talks about Our Lady as a prism and the graces from Christ like, filter through her and come down all these different ways for us. And then the last part of that is feast of, I see feast of Immaculate Conception. And this, I think, really hits the heart of it. There's something so special about Our Lady in the Immaculate Conception. All of us are sinners. That means the devil has won some battles against us. The devil has had some kind of foothold in us at some point, not Our Lady and I just drives him nuts.
Ashley	Just so interesting because it's it's, something that has divided Christians, which gets back to one of his points that, you know, the devil, the mark of the devil's division. Father, where can our listeners find this book and follow your works, your writings, your talks?
Father Dave Tomaszycki	Yeah. So the book, I mean, it's on Amazon. It's on it's online. You can find at the EWTN website. But I do recommend going to the publisher's website. So it was published by a mass road Publishing, which is the publishing arm of Saint Paul Center. So Saint Paul Centers in Steubenville. Scott Hanna is, I think, is the president of the hat or whatever you call it. So if you go to Saint Paul's, the intercom is there. So St Paul's intercom, that's the best way to get it. That way you're supporting, you know, good, good Catholic groups. The easiest way is Amazon, but the best way is Saint Paul center. As far as following me, just follow Jesus. Just follow him. Don't follow me. Follow Jesus my you know my Hamleys they do get online is a podcast page to get online, but I don't have Facebook. I try to not have a social media presence. This past lent when everyone gives up social media. I broke down and I got my first social media good read. So I can so people can see what I'm reading. Yeah, so I'm around but but yeah, follow Jesus.
Ashley	Well, father, thank you so much for taking time to join us and help break down with this soon to be blessed has to say about something so important.
Father Dave Tomaszycki	You're very welcome. Thanks for having me.
Ashley	Welcome to conversations with consequences. Now on EWTN radio. I'm your host, Ashley.
Betsy	McGuire, and I'm Betty Fentress.
Ashley	And we are happy to have Doctor Gregory Pop check with us today. A familiar voice to EWTN with his long running show, More to Life, that he co-hosts with his wife Lisa, and a Catholic psychologist. And Greg, we really wanted to have you on to talk about the topic of postpartum depression. It has certainly been at the forefront of the national or national conversation right now. And certainly one thing that everybody can agree on is that it is an issue and a topic that continues to need more attention. So first, I wanted to start out by reading an important disclaimer that you include in a book that you just written about the topic where you say, if you are in crisis, if you're having thoughts of hurting yourself or your baby, or you feel like your family would be better off without you, don't even wait to finish this article. Or in this case, this episode. Call your doctor immediately. Again, these feelings are not you. They're the illness talking, and God has placed good, expert people in your life to help you fight back. Let the Holy Spirit connect you to the help that you need. So, doctor Patrick, given your expertise in mental health and Catholic counseling, you've released an e-book all about postpartum depression, and you begin the book by pointing out two reasons why Catholics should be a part of this conversation. Why is that?
Dr. Gregory Popcak	Well, first, because as much as we might like to think otherwise, people of faith are just as affected by mental health problems as anybody else. The research really does show that the faith does play a protective element in helping to reduce the risk of people of faith, of contracting mental illness, or other illnesses as well, actually, and also enables us to rebound more effectively when we do become afflicted with these kinds of illnesses. But we are still afflicted with these things. And so being able to respond to this, in a way that is reflective of our Catholic faith and the Catholic view of the person I thought was important. And secondly, kind of tie into that is that as Catholics, you know, we have a lot of spiritual resources and other insights that can be brought to bear on the situation. We have a whole kind of theology about the way we think about our relationship with emotions and, how we think of the person. And so, those combined with all of our spiritual insights and other resources are an important way of fighting back research. Again, it shows that a healthy spirituality and healthy spiritual practices are an important part of recovering from various illnesses, especially mental illness. So, I wanted to make sure that people had access to a faithful voice that was pointing them to faithful resources. And the book is the e-book is free. People can download it by going to Catholic counselors, dot com slash PPD or postpartum depression and just download it for free with one of the provided as a service. Since this is such a hot button issue, we want to be able to get faithful. The people, the faithful information they need.
Betsy	And I'm so grateful that you responded so quickly. Like actually said to this national conversation, I was shocked to see the statistic that you say that it affects about 1 in 7 new moms. Now in in your practice, have you seen this as a steady, issue that you treat? Have you seen more or less over the years. Talk about that.
Dr. Gregory Popcak	It's a it's a it's an ongoing issue in our practice. And I think that, Catholic moms in particular, struggled with a lot of guilt around it because they feel that this means that somehow they're not grateful for their baby, that they're letting God down by not being grateful for the gift of their child. So that adds another layer onto this. And that's one of the, you know, in the disclaimer that you read, it's one of the points I was trying to make in that is that, you know, these feelings are not the mom. You know, they're they're they are the illness attacking your feelings. They're they're making it hard for you to feel how you would like to feel about the how you would feel if you didn't have the illness. And so those feelings aren't you. You're not feeling any more than you would be feeling if you had the flu, for instance. You know, sometimes if we're sick, you know, if I'm just getting over a head cold, right? You know, and I'm not able to do as much as I might normally like to do, but I feel I can beat up on myself for that and feel bad about it. But I know it's not my fault. You know, I didn't I didn't make myself get a cold. Well, you didn't make yourself get postpartum depression either. That's a it's your body's reaction to the normal crash of hormones that occurs after birth, plus a lot of other factors that can impose itself on that as well. But the illness attacks your feelings, and it makes you feel and think a lot of things that you wish you wouldn't feel or think. And when you get treatment, then you can feel better. So I think that's the most important thing, because we blame ourselves like moms blame themselves and say, you know why? Why can't I feel differently about my baby? Why can't I feel differently about myself? What? Why can't I just pray this away? Or why? Why if I was, if I was just more grateful or a better Christian, I wouldn't feel this way. And that's not true at all. And so that's why I wanted to make that distinction and remind people that these are the feelings talking and and the feelings are being affected by an illness that can be treated.
Ashley	For a long time, people called lumped postpartum depression with what is more broadly called the baby blues. And it was, I think, a certainly a way of dismissing the mother's feelings or, or demeaning them, when they are actually in a more clinical category. But you open your book by talking about the difference, both of which are something that, can happen to any women. But can you explain a little bit about the difference and why it's so important to understand that difference?
Dr. Gregory Popcak	Yeah. And the baby, you know, the term baby blues can sound a little patronizing, and I only I use it in the book because that's the common term. Right. But, you know, it's even though it sounds, innocent enough, baby, the baby blues can be tumultuous. I mean, you know, we're talking about, you know, the first two weeks, especially after birth, these baby blues usually peak about day five, but they usually resolve within two weeks on their own. And that's a time where you're feeling a lot of exhaustion, a lot of discomfort, pain, you know, just a lot. The hormonal shifts are going there, plus the psychological adjustments to being a mom. There's a lot to manage. And so you're you're going to feel a lot of things that you might not expect to feel. And that's normal. So that's what the term baby blues means. But if if you're experiencing those kinds of feelings longer than two weeks or whatever feelings you are experiencing are making it hard for you to to bond with your baby, or empathize with your baby, or feel good about yourself or your own motherhood. If you're struggling to communicate your needs or receive help from the people around you that you feel like you you wish that you could get, then, and that's starting to you're starting to beat up on yourself or feel like as I was, as we were saying earlier, that that that your family would be better off without you, that now we've gotten into serious territory where it's worth talking to your doctor about it. And I make the point, in the book that, you know, when we go to the doctor, even if we're not feeling lightheaded, they take our blood pressure. I mean, it's just a matter of assessing what the baseline is. Well, the standards of care, are that every post postpartum mother should be screened every time they go for postpartum visits. The ObGyn, and the pediatrician can offer these as well. So it's a there's a, postpartum depression screening tool that takes about four minutes to complete. And, you know, it should be just as standard as getting your blood pressure taken. So, you know, it's if if the doctor asks you to take it, don't think that he suspects or she suspects something. You don't have to have those feelings, if to ask to take it. It's just a good idea to get a sense of, you know, how are my needs being met? And how am I adjusting, to this post to post baby time? Because there's a lot to adjust to. And so it's just good to be able to have a conversation going on. That's really assessing the level of care you're receiving versus the level of care you might need.
Betsy	So baby blues, postpartum depression. Then there's another level that's again been in the news, called psychosis. Can you delineate how that differs from the other two.
Dr. Gregory Popcak	Share. So with with postpartum psychosis you would begin to either, hallucinate, have auditory or visual hallucinations. You're seeing or hearing things, that, that aren't there. So, you might hear a voice that's telling you to do certain things or telling you to think certain things, or you might see things that aren't there that that is an extra level, of seriousness and complication to the problem.
Ashley	And there's been discussion. A lot of the discussion is hinged on the idea that this, this, these afflictions usually resolve pretty early on. Can you talk a little bit about cases where it can, you know, onset later or, or linger or worsen and, and how kind of rare or not rare that is.
Dr. Gregory Popcak	Sure. So it's it's it does it does tend to get better, especially with treatment within, within about six months. So there's a lot of hope. In fact, the, the vast majority of moms who experience postpartum depression do recover, fully, especially with treatment. And we can talk more about what specifically that means. But the first thing I think to get to your question is it's important to get the right diagnosis, because there are certain physical illnesses that can mimic the signs of postpartum depression. So, for example, there's a thyroid disorder that's often missed, because it a it's an inflammation of the thyroid that that causes exhaustion and mood swings and those sorts of things. And, and a lot of times doctors might dismiss it as tired moms being tired, or a, anemia, which is where the body's, like getting enough blood or, or oxygen from the blood. And that can make that exhaustion as well. And so there are physical illnesses that need to be ruled out. So even if you score higher on the screening test for postpartum depression, that just means that now we need to do some lab work to indicate whether this is a more primarily physical problem or a combination of physical and emotional problem. With the other risk factor, let's say once those things have been ruled out is, the support that the mom is getting, the there tend to be some psychological factors that that put a person more at risk for postpartum depression, including perfectionism and an and, and a discomfort, at least with asking for help. The harder it is for you to identify your needs, much less ask for support with your needs, the harder it is for you to be assertive and kind of expect people to help you with things, the more likely it might be that you could be susceptible to postpartum depression because the new mom needs just so much. Right? And, there are a lot of moms who just want to be everything. They they want to have it all together. They want to be there for their their baby, for their their husband, for their other children, for themselves. And they don't know how to do it. And the good news is that we're not supposed to do it all by ourselves. That's why we have this path, and that's why we have other kids. So that's why we have other people who love us. But there are a lot of people who feel guilty, saying what their needs are and asking for those needs, and that the more of that tends to describe you, the more likely it is that that you would fall into the postpartum depression or have a hard time getting out of it, because it's hard to let people know what help you need or or to even insist on getting that help.
Betsy	Do you think that multi-generational families not living near each other has exacerbated any of this?
Dr. Gregory Popcak	I think that's I think that's the case because clearly, you know, the research really does support the idea that the more support a person has, the more people in the person's life that they would have, the the less likely it is that they would fall prey to postpartum depression and that where the quicker they would get out of it. So social support plays a huge role, especially of the husband. I, I just want to I want to challenge all the dads out there. That, you know, in, in my book. Just excuse me. Then comes baby that looks at the first three years of of birth. I have a chapter for fathers in there that talks a lot about how dads really need to be taking as good care of mom as his mom is taking care of the baby. You know, the that they really need to be, making sure that that she is eating well and getting rest and just getting the times she needs to get a shower and those kinds of things that, you know, I talked to so many moms who will say, you know, this is my this is my sixth day without a shower. And if it's some kind of a medal, you know, we're a badge of honor. And and I it's it's certainly emblematic of the sacrifice that she's making. But I, I talk in the, in the book about the difference between self sacrifice and self-destruction. Yes. And, and when we're not taking care of basic needs, we're falling into that trap of self-destruction, you know, and as Catholics, of course, we recognize the appreciate, we appreciate the importance of sacrifice. Right. But the way I like to think about this is let's let's say that you're, you know, a carpenter, right? And you going to use your tools, right? But you'd still take care of your tools. You make sure that they're clean, they're sharp, and that are put away properly when you're done with them because your tools need to serve you well. The same thing is true of our body, right? Our body is God gives us our body to work for the good of others. In a sense, it's a tool, but it can only do the job it was created to do if we take care of it. And so it's, you know, it's not irresponsible or selfish or or self-indulgent for the carpenter to, you know, to to sharpen his saw and clean his tools and put his things away, and clean the job site done whenever he's done. Is that that's part of the job. And so the same thing is true for the mom. You know, she needing to take care of the tools of the body, myself. The instrument that is being a gift to that child in my family. If I'm not taking care of that, then I can't do the job that God's giving me to do. So, you know, don't fall into that trap of, oh, gosh, it's been six days since I've had a shower. You know, I just keep grazing off of whatever food happens to be lying around. And, and that that's where we can fall into those places. Instead, we want to make sure that the people around us know that we need to be taken care of and are helping us do that.
Ashley	Can you talk about medicine? There's certainly been a bit of a backlash against pharmacology and a growing mistrust of the pharmaceutical industry. And probably even to a sense that having to take medicine is is a failure. Can you talk about the the positive role of medicine and the importance of, making sure it's properly administered?
Dr. Gregory Popcak	Yeah. So, so with postpartum depression, especially since that is a reaction to a physical problem, the hormonal crash that occurs after birth. I recommend in the book that your OB is the first person to talk to you about your symptoms. And the first line, medical treatment is going to be some kind of an SSRI, and that's an antidepressant that's, stands for selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors. So in the nerve cells, there's a little gap between one nerve and the next. And those that gap is filled with neurotransmitters like serotonin. And sometimes the body will absorb that serotonin too quickly, like a sponge. And so then the hand over the dry gap between the nerve cells. And that makes it harder for the electrical arc to jump from cell to cell. So when you have enough serotonin in that, in that gap, it helps the nerve cell to receive the information more efficiently. So SSRIs prevent the body from absorbing the serotonin as quickly so that little stays in that neurological gap longer. And again, you mentioned, you know, the idea of taking medication can be seen as a failure. I mean, you know, I had to take an antibiotic for my cold, right? I'm not I didn't fail my my immune system didn't fail. It did just needed help. And that's the same thing with with this. If you have a physical problem, getting physical treatment is not, it's not a failure. I will say, though, because different people have different reactions to the medication and also medication, tends to affect one, the part of the brain that's responsible for the physical symptoms of depression. So the lethargy, the the brain fog, the sense of kind of blah physical feeling that we have, it doesn't tend to do as much for the emotional peace of depression. So the negative thoughts, the, the, the oppressive feelings, the sense of hopelessness or powerlessness, those tend to come from the self-talk that we might have that we might not even be aware of. So I make a recommendation that if you're on medication for any psychiatric illness, you should be also getting counseling for the for the duration that you're on medication, unless otherwise directed by your mental health counselor. This way you're making sure to not just get the physical relief from the physical symptoms of depression, but you're getting the skills and addressing the issues in your relationship or your own, you know, your own heart that might need to be addressed in order for this, the healing process to move along efficiently.
Betsy	One of the things that you talk about in the book is questions that Catholic mothers have asked you, and one is, how can they tell the difference between the normal but still profound and challenging sacrifices? Got asked some mothers to make as part of the vocation motherhood versus what constitutes unhealthy sufferings. What do you tell women when they ask you that question?
Dr. Gregory Popcak	Yeah, no, it's an important question to kind of tease apart because we of course, we look at the sacrifice that Jesus made and he gave himself totally for us. And so I should give myself totally to. Right? Because I want to be like Christ. And I make the point that, you know, healthy self-sacrifice, is, is is loving and that it helps to affirm my dignity as well as the dignity of those I'm serving, that it is connecting it. It helps to me to bond to other people. It is communal in the sense that I'm not just doing this for everybody else, but I'm inviting other people to participate in the sacrifice with me. So when we look at Jesus's sacrifice, you know, it was loving in the sense that he, of course, was was loving us and raising us. But but also the father glorified him. It was it was connecting in the sense that it helped to heal the bridge, the damage that sin had done to our relationship with with God. And it served a mission. There was a purpose to it. It wasn't just, oh, I guess I'm just going to go out and suffer today. It was it was there was a need to do. This was the only way to do this particular job. And so, you know, even though, mothers are often called to sacrifice a great deal for their children, the way to approach that sacrifice again goes go back to my tool metaphor. You know, I want to make sure that I'm taking care of the tool so that I can I can use it and I can use it over the duration. You know, I make the point in the book that, the most important thing about attaching to a child or the most important element of attachment is making sure that the moms they're too attached to. So making sure that mom is taking care of herself, so that she can be that attachment figure for her baby is so important and so healthy. Sacrifice facilitates that connection that bond, that sense of mission and purpose and meaning, whereas unhealthy sacrifice just grinds me down and makes me feel like, why am I doing this? Somebody else could probably do this better. I should just give up and stop trying. Well, that.
Betsy	Also leads to the question that you say the mothers should be asking. How do you feel about your baby? Why is that a crucial question that they need to be asking themselves?
Dr. Gregory Popcak	Because, as part of this process, even though I'm sacrificing a great deal, there should be a sense of warmth and love and meaning that I see that the effect the I see, the effect that my, my sacrifice is having on this child, you know, that the the child has meanings, milestones that they're, they're they're cooing, they're smiling back at me. And I'm feeling good about that connection that my sacrifice is making possible. If I'm pouring all this energy out into the relationship and I'm doing these things, and I'm either having to drag myself to do those things, or I'm not seeing any benefit, or I'm feeling like I'm failing to do what I need to do because I'm not getting what I expected to get out of the baby. You know, all of those signs, are indications that there's something there's a disconnect between what I'm trying to make happen and what I'm actually experiencing. And and it would be good to talk to your doctor about that disconnect.
Ashley	When I started having kids, things like TikTok reels on Instagram, Facebook, they didn't exist. Social media existed. I'm shocked by the content that, it's produced by this sort of like trad wives movement of women who've given birth. And literally two days later or less, they are, you know, visibly flaunting, pre-baby body. They're it's theatrical. But, you know, I'm thinking about how.
Dr. Gregory Popcak	Intimidating it is. It's intimidating.
Ashley	Yeah, yeah. So talk about, do you think have you seen, do you think that social media and these influencers have played a role in exacerbating women's understanding of what a realistic postpartum period looks like?
Dr. Gregory Popcak	Yeah. No question. I think is by by every measure, social media has been a negative. It has had a negative impact on mental health. And whether we're talking about teen anxiety or mother's mental health, you know, we all compare ourselves to everybody else. And even if we know in the back of our heads too, that that's that's put on that there's a mess off camera. You know, when we see how attractive the person is or how beautiful the house is, how everybody how happy everybody seems. And that's not me. And so I think, you know, if, if that's affecting you negatively, as hard as it is to pull away from social media for a time, I think it kind of going on a little bit. Social media fast is not the worst thing in the world, and really just focusing on what your needs are and what you need to do to feel healthy and to feel connected to your baby and to be taken care of, as opposed to giving yourself one more thing to compare yourself to and come up short on.
Betsy	If people are on medication, or maybe they're not on medication, talk about the role of psychotherapy and just talk therapy in aiding women who are experiencing postpartum depression.
Dr. Gregory Popcak	Sure. So, as I was mentioning earlier, you know, things like perfectionism, that we struggle to, address, to acknowledge my needs or ask for help, certain marital problems can come in. It can be an issue, particularly, we hear a lot about emotional labor, you know, so a lot of, in a lot of marriages, there's this dynamic where the husband says, well, just tell me what to do. I'll do it. The problem is that doing the task is about 10% of the task, but the other 90% is planning the task. Getting all the stuff together for the task, making sure the cast gets done, making sure the task stays done. And if the husband shows up for that 10% of doing the task, he feels great about himself because, well, I help my wife and his wife feels resentful and but then she feels guilty because, well, I don't know why. I feel resentful because he helped me and he did. But he helps you with 10% of the job. So that's that's an often unacknowledged difference between male and female roles that that has to be addressed. Because if the husband's allowed to kind of continue to clue out that way, that really sets his wife up for, for, for a lot of problems, especially after birth.
Betsy	Well, I know this might sound kind of corny, but, I feel like the casserole lady's showing up after you have the baby is really a gift. And if you're connected to a parish or maybe a group of school moms, it allows people to stop by. And if you want to come out of your bedroom while after you nurse the baby, you can and and get social interaction, what other kinds of things can you offer that maybe for people who feel themselves sliding, that can maybe stop this descent, if they're starting to feel, you know.
Father Dave Tomaszycki	Or.
Dr. Gregory Popcak	And there are, you know, I mean, there is I'll talk about some of these practical things in a second. But the most important thing, though, I mean, it doesn't matter. It don't don't say, well, I don't feel that bad or, or I think I'm doing okay or don't, don't try to assess this on your own. But if you're if you're struggling at all and every mom is, then make that part of the conversation you're having with your doctor. You know, you and the doctor together can figure out whether you do it all right or you need additional support. But don't don't try to figure that out on your own. So I'm going to offer some of these other suggestions. But I don't want moms who are listening to think, well, I should just be able to exercise more and then I just.
Betsy	Make right, right.
Dr. Gregory Popcak	Or I should just be able to pray my way through. You should do all those things, right? But regardless, talk to somebody about how you're feeling, even if you think you're feeling good. So that out of the way, I mean. Yes. So, so eating healthy nutritional foods with lots of protein is very important, preferably prepared by somebody else. The casserole ladies that you're talking about, you don't want to have one more thing on your list. Oh, now I have to. Now. Great. Now I have to cook good meals for myself. You know, trying to this is a little bit of a challenge, but trying to rest when the baby does rest. You know, that's not a perfect thing, but that's different from, say, if you have postpartum depression, you know, the baby's resting and you're just sort of staring at the walls or you're wandering around the house feeling kind of hopeless and aimless, that's a very different experience than even a just sitting there trying to sleep and not being able to right movement is important. Exercise in a reasonable way. I'll always make sure to talk with your doctor before you start a formal exercise program, but even just 30 minutes a day altogether, it doesn't have to be in one fell swoop. But you know, work five minutes at a time. You do something that gets your heart pumping, you know, go up the stairs a couple of times, or just the kicking the baby, you know, any of those kinds of things just just help. And so when we're depressed, it mimics other illnesses in the sense that it tells us that if I just lie down for a little bit, I'll feel better. But every time you lie down with depression, you wake up feeling worse because of all the stuff that happened since the time you lay down and you feel like now there's this I have to take care of on top of that. So if you can push yourself to do just a wee bit more, then you feel like doing not not so much. Do you feel like you get a break but a wee bit more that stretching you? That's a better place to be. You know, where you're taking care of yourself, you're getting the rest you need, but you're also challenging yourself just a little bit to go beyond what your comfort zone says. And if you can do those kinds of thing, that's helpful. But but again, all of those things are good. Every mom should do those things. But regardless, don't expect those to take care of the problem. You know, always talk to your doctor first if you have any concerns at all.
Ashley	Doctor Gregory pop check. We're so grateful to you for, first of all, taking the time to write this important book about this very timely topic and all of the work that you've done to help shed light on the way. Our faith is very much, an important part of all of this. So where can our listeners, find your book and follow your work?
Dr. Gregory Popcak	They can go to Catholic Counselors, dot com MPD, and this e-book is free to download. We're offering as a service to anybody who's interested and those people who are or have loved ones with or struggling with this. So anybody can get it at Catholic counselors.com MPD.
Ashley	Wonderful. Thank you so much Doctor Public for joining us today.
Dr. Gregory Popcak	Thank you. It's a pleasure.