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Episode Description
As we anticipate the beatification of Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen, Dr. Matthew Bunson of EWTN News joins us to share his remarkable childhood encounter with the legendary Catholic communicator. As a child growing up in Hawaii, Bunson served as an altar boy for Sheen and even welcomed him into his family’s home during one of the archbishop’s visits. He reflects on Sheen’s commanding presence, his personal kindness, and why Sheen’s profound truths continue to resonate with young Catholics today.
We talk with British policy analyst Sarah Elliott following the recent defeat of an assisted-suicide measure in the UK Parliament. Elliott discusses the close vote, concerns raised about coercion and safeguards, and the powerful personal stories that helped focus attention on palliative care for the seriously ill. She underscores why human dignity must always remain at the core of all public service.
The TCA team also discusses a recent debate over describing abortion as an act of “mercy,” examining how language can shape our understanding of human dignity, and reflecting on why true mercy can never be used to justify the taking of innocent life.
Catch the show every Saturday at 7amET/5pmET on EWTN radio!
And don’t forget to subscribe to TCA’s daily media roundup for smart Catholic news and commentary delivered straight to your inbox.
Bios
Dr. Matthew Bunson is Vice President and Editorial Director of EWTN News, a Catholic historian, theologian, and professor. He is author or co-author of more than fifty books on the papacy, Church history, the saints, and Catholic culture. He holds a B.A. in history, master’s degrees in theology and Church history, a Doctor of Ministry degree, and a Ph.D. in Church History from the Graduate Theological Foundation. He serves as a senior fellow of the St. Paul Center for Biblical Theology and a faculty member at Catholic International University. Among his notable works are the award-winning first English-language biography of Pope Francis, the Encyclopedia of American Catholic History, encyclopedias of the Roman Empire, Catholic history and the saints, and biographies which include his recent Leo XIV: Portrait of the First American Pope. He previously edited Our Sunday Visitor’s Catholic Almanac and The Catholic Answer magazine. As a child growing up in Hawaii, he met Archbishop Fulton Sheen through his mother’s work organizing the prelate’s visit, served as an altar boy at Sheen’s Masses, and has since written personally about those encounters while providing historical commentary for EWTN’s coverage of Sheen’s beatification.
Sarah Elliott, also known as Lady Elliott of Mickle Fell, is a British-based political and policy analyst who serves as Director of the UK-US Special Relationship Unit at the Prosperity Institute. An American who has lived in the UK since 2014, she co-founded and chairs The Hamilton Society, a London forum for center-right Anglo-American professionals, and previously chaired Republicans Overseas UK, remaining an active board member. Her career began in Washington, D.C. with the Republican National Committee’s major donor programs, followed by roles at Americans for Tax Reform, Americans for Prosperity, and Republican campaigns including Bush/Cheney 2004. She later served as Managing Director of the American European Business Association in London. She holds a B.A. in International Affairs from the University of Mary Washington. She is a frequent commentator in major UK media defending US conservative perspectives on trade, energy, and politics. A Catholic convert, she speaks about the role of faith and human dignity in public life. She and her husband, British strategist Matthew Elliott, Baron Elliott of Mickle Fell, share two daughters.
The following transcript is machine generated.
Episode 387 Transcript
| Ashley | Welcome back to conversations with consequences here on EWTN radio. I'm your host, Ashley McGuire. |
| Betsy | And I'm Betsy Fentress. |
| Ashley | And joining us today is Dr. Matthew Bunson, vice president and editorial director of EWTN news. Long before becoming one of the nation's leading Catholic historians and commentators, Matthew had a front row seat to history as a seven year old boy in Hawaii, serving as an altar boy for venerable Fulton Sheen and even hosting the legendary archbishop in his family's home. Today, Doctor Bunsen joins us to reflect on Sheen's historic visits to the islands, his prophetic defense of life, and what his enduring legacy offers the church today. Thank you so much for joining us today, Matthew. |
| Dr. Matthew Bunson | Oh, it's great to be on your show again. I'm always very happy to be a guest. |
| Ashley | So we're gearing up for the beatification next week. And I have to say that I may have had a little pang of envy when I read your story. I've become a major Fulton Sheen fangirl, and I had no idea. First of all, that you lived in Hawaii, let alone that you met Fulton Sheen and had him in your home. Tell us about that. Tell us about your experience, your in-person experience with this man who's on the path to sainthood. |
| Dr. Matthew Bunson | Yeah, it strikes one immediately. Rather unlikely that if you're going to meet Fulton Sheen, why would you do it in Hawaii? It's a fair question, right? Born in Germany, grew up in Hawaii. Military. My dad retired there. Subsequently, I passed away from Huntington's disease. And that that matters because Hawaii was such a wonderful place to live and to grow up. The people of Hawaii have always been so generous, so kind. And Sheen, in a testament to his greatness, came out twice in the span of just two years, like one year apart, 1973 and 1974. And we can talk more about what brought him to Hawaii. And in some ways, the tragedy that brought him to Hawaii on my mom, who was herself a convert and a very long time Bolton Gene fan. Was working for the Diocese of Honolulu, and she helped to organize the visit because back then, everyone all hands joined in. So she helped organize his speeches. A banquet for him in Waikiki. If you're familiar with Hawaii twice, in 1973 and 74. And it was just one of those great gestures on the part of Sheen to spend a little time, with us in our home. And that's sort of the background to why I actually had a chance to meet him because of a seven year old. I tagged along to all of the events. As you said, I remember serving one of his masses. And then just the vivid image of seeing him sitting at our dining room table. Now, I always say that this is 53 years ago or so, so my memory a little hazy of it. But what is very clear in my mind is this colossus of a figure and the impact he had on everyone there, including me. |
| Ashley | I mean, Sheen is very he has this incredibly striking, intensity that I think is part of why he's played so well into the, the social media age, because you can't I mean, if you're scrolling through and it's clip comes on, I mean, just the expression on his face, I've heard somebody say that they who's about your age grew up with, you know, TV in the home and his show and said they found him even a little bit scary. I mean, did you do you. |
| Dr. Matthew Bunson | Remember. |
| Ashley | That intensity? |
| Dr. Matthew Bunson | I remember it quite sharply. Let's put it that way. In my piece for the National Catholic Register, you go to register.com, you can actually see that there's a picture. There's visual evidence of my actually, being with Fulton J. Sheen. And in that picture itself. And let's remember, this is Sheen in his late 70s. So he he died at the age of 84. So this is only about 4 or 5 years before he actually passed away, but he lost nothing of that intense gaze. Now imagine that gaze peering into a camera, staring directly into your soul, as somebody once said of him. And but that's how he was in person. That's how he was on television, and that's how he was when he gave speeches. But that's also how he was when he would have just the conversations with people. He's one on one encounters with people. And I think it's one of the reasons why he connected so well. And he had that the kind of spiritual and emotional impact that he did on people. |
| Betsy | Because your mother is one of the key figures in this story. Tell us a little bit about her and her conversion, and talk about your father during this amazing sheen. A visit to your home. |
| Dr. Matthew Bunson | Yeah, well, my mom was a convert from the Episcopalians. She grew up in Chicago, in South Shore. Sometimes I'll have to come back and we can just talk about her entire conversion experience because it involves snow storms in the Baltimore Catechism. But one of her earliest memories of Fulton was when she wasn't even Catholic when she was a young girl. And she, of course, was on radio, and she was visiting the home of some friends who were Lutherans. So. And Lutherans. And she walks into this home and starts talking with the young friend of hers and the parents in the house. They said, don't know, talking, no talking about Fulton Sheen is on. And she had no idea who that was. But in later years she realized that the Lutherans, these Lutherans were listening to a Catholic on the radio and just inhaling everything he had to say. So her fascination with Sheen continued over those many years. And so for her, it was just a great joy to be able to spend that time with Sheen and actually to help organize his two visits to Hawaii. My dad was also a convert. He was a convert from Judaism, and he converted because of the example of Catholic chaplains in the army during World War Two, and he was increasingly ill in the 1970s with what we subsequently learned was Huntington's disease that also in time claimed the life of my brother, and so he would get around with crutches and things. And Sheen was very, very kind to him, you could tell. So you're able to see two sides of, of Sheen in those little encounters that I had with him as a kid. The one was this towering figure holding in thrall thousands of people at banquets in Honolulu. But then those moments where he was just spending time with people and, you know, they always talk about a great actor like Cary Grant. This is a name from the past, but that he had this ability when he was talking to someone, that you were the only person on earth that he was talking to. That was Sheen, too. But that gaze was always intense. Whether he was talking to 2000 people or one person. And you could see, though also, Sheen talked always about the importance of the human person, the dignity of the human person, and you could see how he treated just the average person. There was there was no contempt, there was no sense of his own importance. He was there truly, because he was always bringing someone and not himself. He was always trying to bring Christ. |
| Ashley | You just reminded me of a story that I've actually written about for the National Catholic Register, which was that I was raised Protestant and I was in a Protestant home, and they had EWTN on and it was Mother Angelica, another person with that intense gaze. And I remember walking by the TV, I was probably about seven years old, actually, and seeing this nun just looking right at the camera. And I said, what is she saying? And it was she was praying the rosary. And so I ended up sitting down with my friend and we just prayed the rosary with Mother Angelica. And so anyways, never underestimate the power of these, these television moments. |
| Dr. Matthew Bunson | What you're making, you're making a really important point. First, that I would say that the two greatest communicators, the possible exception, of course, have John Paul II. But he's I mean, he was Pope, he was John Paul, the Saint, John Paul the Great, future doctor, the church gender thing. But I think two of the greatest communicators in the history of the church, certainly in the last century, were Fulton Sheen and Mother Angelica. And what was so remarkable about both of them, they were so commanding a presence. They simply dominated any screen they were on. But it was never about them. Mother Angelica was always talking about someone else, never about her. To your point, Ashley, about the rosary, Sheen was exactly the same way. There was always a purpose to what they were saying. And you know, today I think one of the great challenges for influencers, and I think we can even see that with some celebrity priests and others, that the story, because of the nature of social media, becomes about them. Sheen and Mother Angelica never wanted it to be about them. |
| Ashley | That's so interesting. Well, something in your article stood out to me because the thing that I'm so amazed by with Fulton Sheen is how ahead of his time he was. When you read his writings, he sounds like he's writing for today. Not, you know, 50, 60, 70 years ago. That's right. And I was struck by the story about him coming for the Red mass. And I believe you write that it was the day after, or it was within a day or two of the Supreme Court's decision in Roe v Wade. And you say that he took he made the theme of his mass, something that the Hawaii Catholic Herald called. There come moments in human history when man plays God. And he was he was so ahead of his time about abortion. Can you talk a little bit about, you know. Hawaii being one of the first states and, and Fulton Sheen's overlapping and really being so ahead of this critical issue. |
| Dr. Matthew Bunson | Yeah. When we started our conversation here, I mentioned I used the word tragedy. Yeah. One of the things that brought Photo sheen to Hawaii and now he was retired in 1969. But he continued this grueling travel schedule around the world, raising money, but also because he was invited by so many people who genuinely loved him and wanted to hear what he had to say. So in 1970, Hawaii became the very first state of the Union. Now Hawaii became a state in 1959, so it had only been around as a state for 11 years if my math was right. So it was a new state, and they made the horrendous decision to legalize abortion. And that then as I, as I put in the article, gave encouragement to other states to push ahead. And that ultimately led, of course, to Rovi Wade. So Sheen coming to Hawaii, I think had two as far as he was concerned, two really important purposes. The first was to reflect on the disaster, moral, demographic, cultural that had taken place three years before. But then he had this opportunity to speak directly to the political leaders of Hawaii within days of the Roe v Wade decision. And he talked about playing God that the, the, the moral fiber, the moral strength of America was being weakened. And Sheen had been talking and warning about this for decades, as you noted, actually, that he you can go all the way back to the 1940s when he was sounding the alarm about things like abortion and contraception. He had that great line that I always remember about birth control, he said. The problem with birth control, that they want neither birth nor control, and those are the types of little lines that he was able to bring to bear. So he spoke fearlessly. And this is a different era because he his words, his homily, we are all, we're all covered by all of the newspapers and AP the Associated Press covered it nationally that he was speaking in Hawaii directly to the leaders, but it wasn't enough for him simply to give that prophetic witness to life. He came back the next year with declining health, to help the diocese stage a fundraiser for a home for unwed mothers, young women who were going pregnant, who wanted to have their children. And it was started by a a great man by the name of Robert or Bob Pearson, and they needed money. And Sheen came out and helped raise what was a pretty astronomical sum of, I think, about $150,000. With his presence. And it was one of those moments when everyone could come together to raise money for these young women. And Sheen delivered. He gave this powerful address without notes. And I remember sitting in the room watching him again, holding everyone everyone's attention. They were just riveted by what he had to say, and again, giving that prophetic witness to life and anticipating, even in that speech, so many of the things that that he warned about him come true, including the demographic crisis, but also the impact of abortion on women, on the psychological, emotional and spiritual results of abortion, and then offering what are the solutions? And he talked about compassion and mercy and love. So it wasn't simply condemnation. He always brought his conversation back about these disasters to hope, to love, to forgiveness and mercy. |
| Betsy | So he had some difficult years in Rochester. This was after his television stardom in the Life Is Worth Living series. And so a lot of people thought that his ministry was waning. How did things like his trips to Hawaii show that he was still really a player in the scene of of Catholic public life? |
| Dr. Matthew Bunson | Yeah, the looking back on it was probably not the best idea or use of his talents to appoint him to become a diocesan bishop. He was already in his 70s at the time when he was appointed in 1966, and typical of Sheen when he was named, he jumped with both feet into the task, and he tried to implement a lot of different programs and initiatives, certainly to steer the implementation of the Second Vatican Council in a way that was faithful to what the council was actually asking. He encountered a lot of resistance, and this was also at a time of the slow effort, heartbreaking at times to bring integration and desegregation and to promote that side for the church. And Sheen was also somebody who had grave concerns about the Vietnam War, and he was willing to express that publicly. So he encountered a lot of opposition in the diocese, and unfortunately, a lot of his programs were just left unfulfilled because of the opposition. And I think he in so many ways, he was a prophetic witness. In some ways, he was also ahead of the curve in trying to get some of these programs up and running in another. So his retirement was greeted by, I used the term, the sort of ecclesiastical remarks that, that well, that's it. He's done. And yet I don't think anyone fully realized was just how beloved Gene was and remained in the public consciousness, but also especially that the Catholic consciousness, which is why he was asked to travel to raise money. You know, he had been a phenomenal fundraiser for the pontifical missions. But then to come out, as he did so generously to Hawaii to raise funds for individual causes and different events. And people just wanted to hear what he had to say about what was going on in the world. So you can see this kind of evolution in his life that, yes, he was no longer on national television, but in some ways he was elevated to becoming a great, wise figure the people wanted to hear from in an era, let's remember, of a lot of upheaval politically and culturally in the United States and around the world. |
| Betsy | So would you say that that trip to Hawaii, which also dovetailed with the Roe v Wade decision, showed his resilience and and and kind of was a ballast for him in the final years of his life. |
| Dr. Matthew Bunson | Yeah. As I quote, when he made the announcement that he was retiring as the Bishop of Rochester, he said, well, I'm not retiring. I'm just getting retread. So like, like a parent, like a really good tire. He just kept rolling. And I think he felt that he had something left to contribute. And one thing with Sheen was he always put the gifts that God gave him to good use. And I think that's a lesson for all of us, that all of us have different gifts and strengths and abilities. I think Sheen recognized that diocesan administration wasn't necessarily the thing he was best at, but proclaiming Christ Jesus to the world. Yeah, I think he had a talent for that, as he demonstrated. But he didn't give up on that, and he didn't simply sink away. He didn't give up. And I think that's a lesson to for all of us that even if we seem to be past our prime or the world doesn't want us, well, it turns out the world really may not necessarily want you, but it needs you. |
| Ashley | Well, this this dovetails on something that I alluded to earlier, which is my fascination are all with which the way he's been able to translate so seamlessly into, you know, short clip social media world. I think in one of the articles that I've written, I don't know if it was I who came up with it, but somebody called him the patron saint of the clip economy, you know, and his the announcement of his beatification came right around the time that there was a big article in the Atlantic or something about how just we consume everything in these short clips. And so what? Why do you. What is it about him, his communication style, his message that if anything is almost more relevant and out there than than ever? |
| Dr. Matthew Bunson | Well, he hits on a couple of really interesting things, and I think you're on to something really important, actually. And that is the idea of being able to communicate in 15 seconds. Yeah, that that he was born for TikTok. He alone I think, could possibly evangelize Tik-Tok. But I also think to myself, can you imagine him turned loose on X? What that would look like? |
| Ashley | Although I have to say, sometimes it feels like he is like everywhere I turn. It's like his face with the with the quote, but but no content, right? |
| Dr. Matthew Bunson | Well, and, we've reported and it's not a shock to people, for whatever reason, I think we can kind of explore that. Gen Z love Bolton Sheen, I think partly because, he there is this sort of nostalgia that you see with Jim Z's that they want to go back to an era that was stable, that frankly made sense, that called you to be, to be and to belong to something that's bigger than you are. And Sheen, I think just with his sheer presence, that presence in front of the camera, the way he would look that we were talking about earlier, I think he really captures people. But there's also just an elegance to him. The way he posed, the way he spoke, the drama that he brought. So he's captivating in a way that most social media influencers would kill to be able to have that kind of presence without looking stupid or pretentious. And Sheen pulled it off perfectly. I think the other thing, too, is that he spoke with such clarity, precision, but he also had a way of being concise. He could capture a phrase, and we mentioned just a few already, of capturing an idea that is ideally suited to communicating and social media today. And I find it so interesting that somebody who is doing this in the 1940s and 50s on television would translate so well at a time when so many other influencers simply can't grasp the nature of it. But again, I think it goes back to the authenticity. And that's that's one of the other key words. I think Sheen was completely authentic. You may have might not agree with everything he says as a non-Catholic or as a Catholic, but you can't argue that this is there's a sincerity, but an authenticity there and a command of the subject matter that is indisputable. |
| Betsy | So as we get ready for the beatification and we're seeing a lot of eclipse, what kind of example do you think he gives for kind of a modern playbook to bishops, priests, evangelists? |
| Dr. Matthew Bunson | Yeah, I think there are a couple of things. The first is to have that clarity, to be able to command a subject. He always made that observation that if you want to demonstrate and to know whether or not you actually know what you're talking about, try to explain it to children. Because if you can't, if you can't figure out a way to explain the teachings of the church to children, then you probably don't really know it because it's too complicated in your head. You have to be able to distill this. So in other words, you have to be able to communicate to everyone you know. It goes back to Francis to fail to talk about being able to talk with kings and philosophers and theologians, but also the peasants and farmers. And it was the same message. I think there's also the way of expressing with love, with charity, with humor. You know, Sheen was one of the greatest raconteurs or storytellers or and joke tellers. But there's always a certain self-deprecating humor about him, too. But it was never forced. It just it just sort of flowed from him. The other thing, and this is something he talked about relentlessly, was and this is, I think, is a lesson not just for bishops and priests, but for all of us. Don't do anything without first to doing a holy hour. Any decision you have to make a sheen on the day of his ordination made a pledge that he would do a holy hour every day of his life. And from that day until his death and December 9th, 1979, he kept that. And he died in the middle of one. He died in the middle of holy hour. So for Sheen, that was simply unimaginable, that that he would not do that. So I think prayer anchoring ourselves in the Eucharist, anchoring ourselves in sacraments, living what we're called to be, but also knowing, too, that they're going to be a lot of ups and downs. As she said, you may lose many a battle in life, but you will win the war with the Eucharist. |
| Ashley | Wow. Well, Matthew, we just have a couple of minutes left. But, EWTN has really kind of reshaped the way coverage of Catholic events happens. And now it's it's kind of like status quo in our house. Oh, you want to watch Midnight mass of the Vatican? Just put it on the YouTube, on the TV and just leave it going for four hours. Your conclave coverage was incredible. You were a big part of that. How EWTN be a part of covering this and and just in a concrete way, where can people go to who want to watch it, who can't go and what other you know, you mentioned there's a book that EWTN has. What are some of the resources? |
| Dr. Matthew Bunson | Forgive me. Sure. We have this. It's a commemorative book marking the significance of this beatification. You can find it@the.com and religious catalog. I love this book. It's full of imagery, pictures, many of them demonstrating what you were talking about earlier, asking me about this, the way he just had, he could look into a camera, but obviously right now we're covering the beatification and giving it, I think, do justice by broadcasting. The novena, for example, is leading up to the beatification, will be doing all day coverage on September 24th of the actual day of the everything that's happening in Saint Louis. All of the events in Peoria, the Sheen Awards. But it's also part of a recognition of the legacy of folk and Sheen. You know, ten has been broadcasting Sheen's programs for years. So that's going to continue, especially now that he's blessed and, God willing, will be a saint soon. And then there are all of the events like the vigil mass and other things. And you can find those at obviously, on our broadcast channel. Wherever you are. But you can also stream it on the app. You can go to a video on demand that we have a team plus. So there are a host of different ways that you can follow the beatification. And then I also know the National Catholic Register is going to have a very special edition for coverage of the Sheen beyond. It's a moment, I think, for all of us to be grateful to Sheen, but also to pick up his mantle to to pick up his flag and carry it forward in fidelity to what he wanted for America. And that is to remember who we are called to be as a country. |
| Ashley | Wonderful. Well, Matthew, or we'll be so excited. I will be there in person, but I know so many other people will be so thrilled and grateful to be walking, there, you know, alongside so many other Catholics. Very much thanks to the extraordinary coverage that I know we will get from EWTN. So thank you so much for joining us, telling us so many of these wonderful stories and all your wisdom on Fulton Sheen. |
| Dr. Matthew Bunson | It's a privilege to be with you, really. And I love your show. Thank you. |
| Ashley | Welcome to conversations with consequences. Now on EWTN radio. I'm your host, Ashley McGuire. And joining us is Lady Sarah Elliott. She is a prominent political analyst whose husband serves in the U.K. House of Lords. And Sarah is the director of U.S., U.K. relationships at the British think tank, the Prosperity Institute. Sarah, thank you so much for joining the show today. |
| Sarah Elliott | Oh my pleasure. Great to be here. |
| Ashley | So I wanted to get your take on this really important vote that just happened in the UK Parliament. This is something groups like ours have been watching for a while, because it really has been like a struggle to the mattresses in the UK to try and hold the march of assisted suicide at bay. And Parliament very narrowly voted to defeat a measure that would have legalized assisted suicide. And you've had a close up view to this with your husband serving in the House of Lords. But what struck you most about this, this time around with this particular vote? |
| Sarah Elliott | Well, it's been very controversial because since labor came to power in July of 2024, they started pushing this right out of the gate. It was not in the labor manifesto that they ran on. So the public did not vote on this when they were voting for the Labor Party to take power. And it's a private member's bill. And and it was being pushed pretty quickly, through both chambers. And what happened in the last Parliament, is it stalled in the House of Lords because there was so much scrutiny and controversy, as the British would say, or controversy, that they actually went past the deadline for Parliament and Parliament ended and went into recess. And so the bill did not get passed in the last session. But immediately it was picked up again when Parliament opened after the summer. And fortunately it was defeated, but only by 16 votes, this time in the House of Commons. So it had been passing the House of Commons on previous readings by, you know, 30 votes, more than 30 votes. And this time it was 16. And basically what happened, I would say that the right to life side one, the argument, I think they raised so many concerns with this bill, such as, you know, could someone be coerced? The pressure, the mental stability of the individual. I mean, as we know on this issue, there's so many factors that come into play. And of course, suicide is illegal in the United Kingdom. So this bill would cut would create a carve out for, doctors to allow it in certain circumstances. So, because of that, and I think just the idea that it was cross-party, by the way, this was what's called a conscience vote, which means you can vote with your conscience and there is not a party line on it. Many people actually abstained. Many MPs didn't vote and that helped to defeat it, including the prime Minister, Andy Burnham, a Catholic. He in some respects is the first Catholic prime minister. Some say it's Boris Johnson, but he had left the faith previously. Andy Burnham has been a Catholic his whole life and he abstained. He didn't even vote against it. So, it is dead in the water. It will not be brought up again. I don't think, under this labor government, but being that it only failed by 16 votes, you can bet that the proponents will find another way to bring this back. |
| Ashley | So one of the many people said that maybe one of the moments that really tipped things in the direction of defeat was a speech by labor MP Ashley Dalton. A woman who is diagnosed with stage four breast cancer and talked about her own personal struggle with that diagnosis, her fear for others who, you know, might face that diagnosis in a world where euthanasia is being pushed. But can you talk a little bit about her speech and, and just what that represents in general in terms of, you know, concerns about abuse as well as voices saying what we need is more palliative care. |
| Sarah Elliott | I think what was the really, thing that came out the most in this debate over the last two years is the personal story, right? Is how close people were either watching their child die, their parent die, and on the labor side, and the Liberal Democrats, by the way, the Liberal Democrats, which is kind of like a wishy washy party in between conservatives and Labor were the most supportive of assisted suicide, and my Liberal Democrat MP, voted against it, a minority in her party because she watched her son pass. And so she was advocating for more palliative care, for a more beautiful ending to these lives and a more graceful, and I would say, life affirming way of passing. And, and so these personal stories and she by the way, the woman you mentioned, she gave that speech in Parliament, you know, having lost all her hair. So she was there, bald, speaking clearly a woman going through treatment. And everybody has been affected by cancer in the world. And I think it's just it's one of those heartstrings stories. And we know that personal experiences and anecdotes are often what people walk away from or impact them the most. And that's what happened here. |
| Ashley | My impression in the US is that people generally would share her sentiments. And what you just expressed, that everybody's been touched by seeing somebody suffer at the end of life, deal with difficult diagnoses, but people don't seem to be keyed in and maybe they just don't want to think about it. I don't know to how quickly, at least in the U.S., this issue is moving forward very quickly. You know, Illinois just passed euthanasia. I mean, I've lost track at this point of how many states have legalized it. What's your impression of people in the UK? Not. You mentioned this wasn't something that this current government campaigned on. Do you have a sense of where people are just anecdotally in terms of is this something people aren't even thinking about? They don't want to speak out about? What's your impression of where people are? And I know that's a broad question, but just anecdotally, people sentiments on the topic. |
| Sarah Elliott | Yeah. I mean, I think what's really interesting is that this bill failed not because helping someone to die is wrong, but because the safeguards in place weren't good enough. |
| Ashley | Interesting. |
| Sarah Elliott | And that palliative care is, you know, we need to improve palliative care. But that wasn't the main issue. You know, we should all be doing it because everyone has human dignity and deserves, you know, the best care. And to pass, when the good Lord says it's time, you know, who are we to decide when that ending is and that? And as Catholics, of course, we believe that there is beauty and redemption and suffering. And that's not, of course, the secular view anecdotally. Well, I just found out this week that someone I know, an older gentleman who was very supportive of my husband's work in the past, went to Switzerland to kill himself to. And he he did he he I was in his 80s. His wife had passed about eight years prior. He had had a stroke. He was afraid of having another stroke and being incapacitated and went to Switzerland to die. And so he committed suicide. So that's quite shocking to hear. But people believe in choice. People believe in choosing your own destiny. It is a very secular country, the United Kingdom. And I would say that, you know, there is new interest in the younger generation and to understanding the ancient faiths and religion. But by and large, people love the idea of choice and controlling how they die. |
| Ashley | Well, next week, the United States, in the United States, Fulton Sheen is going to be beatified. Really exciting moment for the American church. And I've been doing a lot of reading from his vast writings. And he I was recently reading a collection of his writings on the demonic. And I was really struck by the fact that he said that a, a hallmark sign of the demonic is a schizophrenic mentality about morality. And it's just so striking that here we are in a suicide global Suicide Prevention month, and on the one hand, trying to prevent people from committing suicide, while on the other hand, you know, working to stop efforts to legalize suicide. And my goodness, the slippery slope. I mean, I just wrote an article about medical aid and dying in Canada, where they're advocating to have euthanasia available for infants, disabled infants. But you mentioned renewed interest in the ancient faith. So we just have a couple of minutes left. But I want to get your take on these raves that are going on in. I believe it's Saint Paul's Cathedral. This kind of got splattered across the press here, because it seems like there's a misguided belief that if you throw like a disco party in a cathedral, I don't even know. But Bishop Barron weighed in on it. He said, even though it was not my understanding in a Roman Catholic church, he said the usual reasons for acquiescing to this have been trotted out, reaching out to the young, trying to get with the times. Cetera. But this development simply shows that the leadership of the Church of England has lost any sense of the crucial distinction between the sacred and the secular. Can you talk about these parties and churches and and what you are seeing with what's really bringing young people into the faith? |
| Sarah Elliott | Yeah, sure. And just I have to note one thing that Fulton Sheen is going to taking the next step towards sainthood on the feast of Our Lady of Walsingham. And which is a wonderful feast day shared by both Anglicans and Catholic for Our Lady of Walsingham, which was one of the biggest medieval pilgrimage sites, and dedication to Our Lady and England was then called the dowry of Mary. So anyway, that's fascinating for me. I encourage everyone to look up Our Lady of Walsingham. She's the lady of reconciliation, of bringing the two faiths together. That is Protestant and Catholic. Okay. The raves, the. I mean, it's really disappointing to see such an incredible venue of Saint Paul's Cathedral that has hosted events like Princess Diana's wedding, the funeral of Margaret Thatcher. It is where the famous Nelson is is buried there. The British hero that defeated the French. It is. There's also a chapel to American servicemen who defended Britain during the great. During the wars, particularly the Second World War. So you have this, this secularization of a church that should be a place of worship. But why do why are these churches doing it? Well, there aren't enough people actually, as members attending the parishes on a regular basis and giving donations. And so in order to keep it up, they feel the need to go into these partnerships with these music companies like fabric for four year partnership, or they'll do various concerts, etc. they say that it's not going to be loud music or things like that, but what they end up doing is flashing laser lights everywhere, and everyone has a headset on for a silent disco or something, and it just really Daesang defies the place, right? It's irreverent, and one prominent British historian, Tom Holland, who, by the way, is he identifies as a cultural Christian but not a Christian. And he had a great line. The British historian who considers himself a cultural Christian because he believes in the inheritance that Christianity has given the UK, he said, A church that comprises a sense of itself as a sacred space does indeed risk diminishing itself to the status of a landmark. So that's what it's doing. It's making all these places just tourist attractions and not places of worship. And so we should resoundingly reject it, in my opinion. |
| Ashley | An opinion I share. And I know you and I are both converts, and it's, it's certainly not the church as a landmark that helped draw us to the faith. It was. It was the church standing decidedly apart from the times, including with regards to a sense of reverence for the sacred, because any anything can be turned into a rave. But, you know, creating a sacred space for worship is an entirely different thing. Well, Lady Sarah Elliot, thank you so much for joining us on short notice to talk about this really important moment in the UK. I know it's I know it's a thin line, but my goodness, we need somebody to hold the line. So we're grateful for all of the efforts of people like you on the other side of the ocean, standing up for the truth and for human dignity. So thanks so much for joining us today. |
| Sarah Elliott | You're very welcome. Don't give up on the UK. Keep us in your prayers. |
| Ashley | Welcome to conversations with consequences on EWTN radio. I'm your host, Ashley McGuire. |
| Betsy | And I'm Betty Fentress. |
| Leigh Snead | And I'm Lee Sneed. |
| Ashley | And it's always great to be with the entire team. How are you both? |
| Betsy | Well, I'm a little disturbed because of the amazing article that you wrote for The Daily Wire, and it's entitled Anne Hathaway Calls Abortion Mercy. The bigger question is chilling. Can you tell Lee and I what made you write this article and the backstory behind it? |
| Ashley | Yeah, so one of my favorite writers is Peggy Noonan, and one thing I admire so much about her is the way she weaves together different threads that seem unrelated in the national conversation, but really are. And last week, I just saw three different threads that I felt like needed to be woven together. The first was actually a very disturbing story about Canada, our neighbors to the north who are really the leading. They're leading the way on euthanasia. It's now the cause of, I think, 1 in 5 deaths in Canada and one of their major medical boards came out and said that they should be able to use euthanasia, or they call the euphemism and call it medical aid in dying on infants up to one years old who are suffering from. You know, insert the name of some kind of suffering. And their implication was that it was it would be merciful to euthanize the baby because of their suffering. So that that caught my attention. Then I saw this viral tweet from Anne Hathaway. Turns out it was actually dug up from several years ago. But she was on the View and says that another word for abortion should be mercy. And then this is all against the backdrop of the Lindsay Clancy trial, which I tried not to look too much at, but it was almost impossible not to see it everywhere you turn. But what caught my attention was that one of the medical experts and one of the jurors has since come out and said that they were convinced that this was her state of mind, that she had committed what's called altruistic side. |
| Ashley | Or it's basically when somebody somebody's insane and they think that their children are better off dead, that they're somehow helping their children by killing them. And this expert said that she had intended to kill herself because she was depressed, but was worried about her kids, and so she killed them. So that just prompted me to write this article. To ask the question, really, is killing children and active insanity or a sane act? Which one is it? But it can't be both. |
| Leigh Snead | Yeah, well, I remember when I first read about that mercy abortion situation with Anne Hathaway. I try not to pay too much attention to what celebrities have to say about anything other than their the movie that they're currently starring in. But I remember when I saw that and I was just so disappointed. Not because I had super high hope, but I had sort of just thought she had stayed quiet. She hadn't been super loud about things like that. But of course, when you go on The View, I think it's probably you have to sign a contract ahead of time. You'll say something like that, right? Yeah. And so I'm glad you're bringing it back, especially as she's currently pregnant and her pregnancy has been in the news so much. Right. So it's a real sharp contrast. And then again, especially with all the others. Heartbreaking infant baby news. It's really happy that you've addressed it like this and woven those threads together to think about, like, what is the national consciousness like about these things, about beginning and end of life issues? |
| Betsy | I just can't help thinking exactly what you just said, that as we have this mission creep about babies and their lives, we're getting it on the other end with made and physician assisted suicide. And it's it all goes back to what is a life who's responsible for a life and who has the power to take life. And I just find I mean, we had Doctor Greg on last week talking about postpartum depression, and I think it's really important to separate that out from the conversation and and from I just felt that my kids needed to not live anymore because either I can't handle it or I wouldn't be a good mom. |
| Betsy | And I just I just don't understand how we ever get to the point. People do kill their children sometimes, you know, in these acts of insanity, but the support around that is chilling, as Ashley points out. |
| Ashley | Yeah. And and that's kind of one of the points that I make in the article, which is that, yes, we see stories about women who kill their children, unfortunately, more commonly than than we'd like, you know, framing it as an active mercy, but also an insane act just seems schizophrenic because at the same time, we are actually making arguments that certain acts of killing children is merciful without any iota of suggesting that that's insane. And so I thought it was also interesting to refer to another show guest when we we spoke with the priest who curated Fulton Sheen's work on The demonic, that one of the three things he said of signs of the demonic is a schizophrenic mindset. And so I just that also, I mean, I'm giving myself chills saying it's just we can't we cannot have a schizophrenic mindset about the killing of children. And unfortunately, the times that we live in, we have to kind of state things that should be obvious really plainly, not just on that, but on on so many other things. But it does seem like especially among women and, you know, within the feminist movement, I also sight that in the middle of all of this, Gloria Steinem dies. So it just prompted another moment of reflection on what are we? What do we believe about this? What actually do we believe? And, you know, I think, per your important point, that we can set aside, we can completely remove the topic of women's postpartum mental health, which is very meriting of our attention. And the women absolutely need more support than they're getting. We can set that aside and still have a conversation about killing children. And, you know, at the end of my article, I basically say that civilization hinges on this pre-Civil societies. That was part of what defined them, was they just, you know, they the ancient Romans, they threw infants over the city walls. You know, the Aztecs, they sacrificed humans, children. I mean, so we're not a civilized society if we can't collectively agree that it's wrong to kill children no matter what, but most especially disabled children. |
| Leigh Snead | We've been desensitized to it. It's not even like a shocking or controversial argument in favor of abortion rights. To say, I just didn't think it was fair to bring a child into the world right now where I am in my career, right? Like I like, oh yeah, that's just not a big deal. |
| Ashley | That was another thread in this tapestry was there was also the viral. This went briefly viral on Twitter. A woman saying basically my baby was better off just she and she's on a podcast called The Postpartum Podcast, basically saying, what about make the world a place where we don't mistreat people based on their disabilities or how they look? Again, that gets to civilization hinges on this. But yes, to what you're saying. I feel like we've conditioned the waters for this, this moment, the schizophrenic moment, by desensitizing people to the violence of against children and abortion. And unfortunately, to your point, Betsy, about end of life issues, increasingly mistreatment of people at the other spectrum of life and directing legal violence against them. |
| Betsy | You actually had another thread where you talked about the case in Texas slash Canada. Mackenzie West, the surrogate mother who had to flee, as you say, flee the couple that hired her for her womb and pressured her to abort as soon as they learned that the baby had a heart condition. And again, it just boggles the mind. |
| Ashley | The biological parents of that hired this woman to carry to gestate their child said when they found out that the child had a treatable heart defect, which this woman new because she was a nurse, treatable heart defect, that they thought they were doing what was best for their child. Yeah. And we, we we talked about this. That was the sub header of like an NBC news story. So people they intake these stories with these kind of bland statements like that. And we're just all walking around like zombies like yep. Better off dead. Not not better off with the best medical care in the world. And and a woman who wants to actually wants to raise that child. |
| Leigh Snead | Yeah. Well, what about I mean, just I mean, another just sort of phenomenon of this is remember when Iceland, like, cured down syndrome? I mean, you know, it's it really wasn't that. It was, you know, they just abort all of them. It's really it's crazy to me how this has become just purely palatable to the American public. And I think people are so custom to hearing these things that they don't often realize that these are euphemisms for something that's pretty dark, right? |
| Ashley | Yeah. No, I mean, abortion is a euphemism for altruistic, which is out of the textbooks for insanity. So, you know, that that was kind of what I was trying to, encourage people to at least contemplate, which is, you know, we're we're everything is cloaked in euphemisms, but but sometimes something like this brings it to the forefront, and we're forced to consider, is it ever an act of mercy to kill an unborn child? |
| Betsy | I think what gets me is the hubris that everybody knows how their life is going to play out. If they have a disabled child or a child with special needs, or they're in college and they just think there is no way that this can turn out well. And I want to say, well, because you have a crystal ball, you know, I mean, the pro-lifers always are finding these stories where people say, I felt backed against a corner, but something told me pushed through, and I have this child that I absolutely adore. |
| Ashley | Yeah. No, I mean, I think we all know countless families who would say that, the child who has whatever insert the name of difference by, you know, learning difference, disability is the biggest blessing in their family. And it, you know, again, getting back to the question of civilization is, you know, civilization hinges on us being able to coexist with people who are different from us. And so when you per, you know, the point you brought up, Lee, about when you quote unquote eliminate or eradicate them, I mean, they didn't eradicate down syndrome, they just eradicated a whole category of people. But when you do that, you grow up with enable or you, you create an ableist society and that's that's monstrous. Nobody wants to live in an able a society because, you know, as, as your husband Carter has written about what it means to be human, ultimately is about dependency. I mean, that's at the heart of Christianity. It's why it's why the message of Christianity is so countercultural. It's because we have such an individualistic, ableist society, that we we really need the Christian message, about sacrifice for others and, dependance on others. But I guess to not end on a negative note, I don't know if you all saw the story percolating this week. The pro-life speech actor Tom Pelphrey gave at the Emmys. I did not know. Well, he's not pro-life, right? He just accidentally said a pro-life thing. I'm not sure. |
| Leigh Snead | So I think it's the latter. |
| Betsy | You know what? |
| Leigh Snead | I say it anyway. |
| Betsy | Exactly. |
| Ashley | Yeah. We'll take the win when we get it. So he just won his first award, starting starring in HBO's task, and he used the opportunity to really highlight his love for his fiance. He said, my love, my best friend, my partner, the very pregnant Kaley Cuoco. I love you more than anything, and our family is the crown jewel of my life. And then to his children, including the one in his mother's womb, he said, Matilda, daddy loves you, baby girl in that belly. Daddy loves you. Thank you and God bless. So, you know, we still have a national conscience, even Hollywood. But I guess we still have a lot more work cut out for us and helping people to protect that conscience and use it. Activated to protect the most vulnerable members of our human family. So thanks for chatting, ladies, and talking about my. |
| Leigh Snead | Thanks for writing that great article. |
| Betsy | Thank you. |
| Ashley | Make sure to visit the Catholic Association to follow everything we do in radio, TV, print, online and numerous local communities. |