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Episode Description
With the grand reopening of the Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris this weekend, Solène Tadié of the National Catholic Register joins to share little-known facts about the medieval Gothic jewel and recalls the heroism of a chaplain who ran into the flames to rescue the Blessed Sacrament and sacred relics. Despite setbacks, French president Emmanuel Macron pledged to restore the revered structure within five years of the fire that consumed much of the roof and its famous spire in 2019. That promise will be fulfilled in the cathedral’s grand reopening on Saturday, December 7.
Ashley McGuire and Leigh Snead discuss two recent articles detailing the tragic realities of IVF. They discuss the urgent need to reform and regulate a multibillion industry that exploits women and is “ripe for abuse,” per countless experts.
Father Roger Landry also offers an inspiring homily to prepare us for this Sunday’s Gospel as we contemplate the Immaculate Conception.
Bios
Solène Tadié is the Europe Correspondent for the National Catholic Register. A French-Swiss who grew up in Paris, Tadié earned her degree in journalism from Roma III University, and began reporting on Rome and the Vatican for Aleteia, a Catholic news and information website. She went on to write for L’Osservatore Romano in 2015, covering the French and cultural sections of the Italian daily newspaper. She frequently collaborates with French-speaking Catholic media organizations, and recently translated Defending the Free Market: The Moral Case for a Free Economy by Acton Institute’s Fr. Robert Sirico into French for Editions Salvator. Tadié also holds a Bachelor’s Degree in Philosophy from the Pontifical University of Saint Thomas Aquinas.
Ashley McGuire is a Senior Fellow with The Catholic Association and co-host of the nationally syndicated radio show, Conversations with Consequences. She is also the author of the book, Sex Scandal: The Drive to Abolish Male and Female. She has written for numerous news outlets and spoken on major television networks, and serves as a prominent voice for the pro-life movement and religious liberty. She is married with five children.
Leigh Fitzpatrick Snead is a co-host for the nationally syndicated radio show, Conversations with Consequences, and a Fellow for The Catholic Association. A writer, editor, and speaker, her work has appeared in the National Catholic Register, Washington Times, and many other media outlets. She took her doctoral studies as a John Quasten Fellow at the Catholic University of America and the School of Philosophy, and earned her Bachelor of Arts from St. Johns College in Annapolis, Maryland. A former fashion and travel editor for Theology of Home, she serves on the Executive Board of Human Life. Leigh lives in Indiana with her husband and four children.
Father Roger Landry is a priest of the Diocese of Fall River, Massachusetts. He writes for numerous publications, speaks on radio and TV, and is the author of the book, Plan of Life: Habits to Help You Grow Closer to God. A graduate of Harvard and the Pontifical North American College in Rome, he served as Attaché to the Holy See’s Permanent Observer Mission to the UN in New York. Father Landry traversed the full 1500-mile Eucharist Pilgrimage this past summer and joined the historic Eucharistic Congress in Indianapolis, an event which coincided with his 25th year in the priesthood. He was recently appointed the new National Director of the Pontifical Mission Societies in the USA.
The following transcript is machine generated.
Episode 294 Transcript
| Ashley | Hello friends, and welcome to Conversations with Consequences. We are the radio show and podcast of the Catholic Association where we aim to change the culture one conversation at a time. You can listen to Conversations with Consequences on the EWTN Global Catholic Radio Network Saturday mornings at 7 a.m. Eastern, or catch the encore at 5 p.m.. We are also on Sirius XM Channel 130, of course. Our radio show is also a podcast. Go to the Catholic Associa Nation board or directly to wherever you listen to your podcast. Welcome to Conversations with Consequences. I'm your hostess. Ashley McGuire, and I'm joined today by my wonderful colleague, Leigh Snead. So great to be with you. |
| Leigh | Thanks for having us. So excited to be here. |
| Ashley | So today we're talking about two of the craziest stories that I've read in a while. They were both incredibly long pieces. One was over 7000 words. Another one was 6000 words. And both were very different, but equally shocking indictments of the IDF industry. And I've been hearing this phrase a lot lately, the expression the wild, Wild West. And these articles certainly, I mean, made the wild, Wild West look tame and both were kind of heartbreaking in their in their own way. The first story was in The New York Times, and it was a story about two couples whose babies got mixed up. So they each came home from the hospital they carried to term and gave. |
| Leigh | Birth to. |
| Ashley | Babies through IVF. And the author does a really good job of animating the way the father in particular, which makes total sense. Like, you know, we've both had little babies. Like when you have a newborn baby, you're just kind of in this fog. But the dad immediately is like, I don't think that's my baby. And, you know, keep suspecting, keep suspecting. And then finally. |
| Leigh | And even his mother, I think, said something. Right. |
| Ashley | Everybody was kind of making comments and like, it's it's so well-drawn because, you know, I have five kids and one doesn't look like the next. And, you know, people joke about you know, people make jokes about it like, you know, and it's true that it can there can be these sort of biological freak incidents where, you know, a gene like I have a cousin who has she and her husband have black hair and they have a fiery orange red haired baby. I was just going to say. |
| Leigh | With redhead babies, they seem to be like the big surprises in a lot of families. |
| Ashley | So it's not, you know, unheard of to have a child that doesn't look anything like you, especially if you have somebody ethnic in your, you know, far back in your origins that you don't know about. But what makes things so different now is that we have all these resources. You can just order a kit online paternity test 23 on me. So anyways, long story short, they find out, you know, what turns out to be their worst nightmare, which is that they actually have somebody else's biological child. And the other couple lives in a total fluke, just 10 minutes away. |
| Leigh | And so strange. |
| Ashley | It tells the story of, you know, how to how they what to do. And so I don't know. What was your reaction to this heartbreaking story? |
| Leigh | You know, I think we always stand up and take notice whenever the secular media is covering anything about IVF, especially maybe something potentially negative. And this was not just potentially, but yeah, I mean, I actually you know, I'm an adoptive mother and so I've, you know, raised and bonded with a child for children that are not biologically related to me. And these people's cases, since the mistake happened with the clinic, these women actually carrying these babies, you know, throughout their pregnancy. I mean, I just thought it was really, really excellent reporting on the state of mind because it's exactly what you can imagine or what I have felt when I've read stories about adoptions being interrupted and someone having, you know, to lose a baby. And I think people would say like, but it's best they're going to be with their biological mother or something. And who knows? The details of every every story is different. But doesn't none of that means that this mother bonded to that baby any less. And I think that's what we see in these two families who don't want to let these babies go, even though they obviously have that pull towards their genetic child. And it's actually a real testament to like the good of humanity, I think. I mean, there's no good solution here, I guess. But this they seemed to created something really beautiful and I was in tears for most of the article. The way that they decide to live their lives together and I mean, it's strange, some of the titles they choose for each other, but the the idea that they don't, they're not going to limit or even, you know, just they're not going to denigrate the connections just because of the biology that exists between these mothers who raise these kids for, what was it, three months? Yeah, it was before they found out. But then it took longer, I guess, to make the transitions. But, the sibling story was heartbreaking. I mean, because I know, I mean, I've seen my children who are not biologically related, but I mean, they're brothers, you know, And I can't imagine them being okay with saying goodbye to any of them. You know, it's just, you know, having seen that, I mean, it was a real thing. And I just I it's unbelievable, this Wild West that we're talking about, how little regulation there is, if you're going to assume this great responsibility, at least put the embryo in the right mother. I mean, that seems bare minimum. |
| Ashley | Well, you you make a really good point that I hadn't thought of, which is that it does actually it's a it's a tragic story. But you're right that it does sort of beautifully portray the maternal impulse that both of the both of the mothers the fathers struggle, too, but the mothers had a real attachment to the babies that weren't biologically theirs. And and that goes to your point that that's that's a very real an innate thing. And it really juxtaposes with the other article, which was a story about a billionaire who's, you know, in and out of jail. He kind of reminded me of like a Jeffrey Epstein type menacing figure. And he basically he hires countless I mean, it kind of it was a dizzying number of women, both to use as surrogates, to use as egg donors to basically factory produce en masse children whom he then and then the women he just discards. And right. He ends up, I think, with 12 biological, 12 babies that are born. |
| Leigh | But yes, he lives with eight of them, I think. |
| Ashley | Yeah, an untold number of what's the word I'm looking for. Just tragedies along the way of women who are used, tossed aside, lied to manipulated. And what clearly unifies both stories is the fact that the world of IVF is woefully en regulated and that women in particular are are exploited. You know, in the first case, it's these poor mothers that just heartbreak and total totally difficult situation that they have to navigate. And then in the second story, it's these women who are just treated as sheer commodities for this total Maniacs vision of creating as many children as he possibly can. And so I don't know, like, where do we where do we even begin with IVF regulation? And, you know, one of the things I thought was so interesting in both articles is that the interview, all these experts and the experts will all say, yes, it's ripe for abuse. I kept seeing that phrase, The industry is ripe for abuse. But they don't want to concede that they need to regulate it more because, goodness forbid, it might restrict access. What does that sound like? |
| Leigh | Yeah, exactly. And as so many of the references in in the articles like sort of referred back to that, in fact, I do remember a couple of years ago there was a Netflix documentary called Our Father, and it was a story of an IVF doctor in Indiana who used his own gametes to impregnate so very many women. He had 94. There were at least 94 identified biological children because they started they started it like they did these 23 and me tests. And I think they actually worked through Facebook trying to find one another, and they were able to sue him. But just for fraud, I guess. And I think one of the things about the regulating is they're like, well, you know, that guy still got the he deserved because you could sue him under fraud cases or I actually don't know if they successfully prosecuted him, but when I was refreshing my mind about that doctor in Indiana, I saw another article, I think, in Forbes, that at least 50 doctors in the United States have been accused of the same thing of using their own gametes. Well, embryos. |
| Ashley | This is so like another thing they kept saying in these articles was, this is just an extremely rare thing, these mix ups, these mistakes, this abuse. I'm like, it's all I ever hear about. Yeah. Is people abusing the system, people abusing women embryos, getting mixed up, or the one that I've seen more stories than I care to read about are siblings finding out they're married to each other because these people who were conceived anonymously find support groups because when they become adults and realize their dad was just some anonymous sperm donor, they they find that very hard to deal with. And so they join these, like support groups. They fall in love, marry people and find out they're like second cousins or or half half siblings. |
| Leigh | I think there's actually a maybe psychological or maybe even hormonal. There's something there is some kind of an I probably shouldn't talk about because I'm not a doctor, but I know that there is something because, I mean, the way we think there are biological bonds are very real, even though they're obviously you can bond without them. There is something about people not realizing that they may be attracted to someone because they share some features or something similar because they're genetic relatives. There's an attraction towards family. And when you don't know that that person's family and if you're maybe in the same age and you know, it's there's a real it's a it's a real thing and there's been things written about it even there's been some fictionalized accounts of it. So it's a real risk that these people aren't, I think, considering because it is a slippery slope, having been to a been a patient of a doctor briefly who did IVF, they're very, very persuasive. He didn't want to hear anything about our beliefs as Catholics that we didn't do that. We just sort of wanted to have the exams and maybe some you know, if there was some kind of easy fix or some kind of low level treatment that aligned with the Catholic teaching, you know, But he really didn't want that. What he wanted to do is he wanted to push us into, you know, intrauterine insemination. He wanted then every time you'd be like, you know, we'd love to have you in our IVF program, like to enroll you in our IVF program. Program. Yes, program. And also they had a money back guarantee that if you didn't conceived, you wouldn't have to pay a thing. So there is no financial motivation for them to, you know, make sure that you have a successful pregnancy. And then but I can imagine, I mean, it's one step after another. You just start saying yes. And then all of a sudden you're saying yes to donor gametes. You know, and then you're saying yes to a surrogate when you've had, you know, five IVF cycles and, you know, you haven't been able to carry a baby to term, you know, it's just one thing after another. Once you give in to one thing, it's another. And I remember this years ago, there was always a comparison between the United States. Another countries especially, I think it was Great Britain that they limited the transfers at that time. Anyway, I don't know. Lots of changed to two embryos. |
| Ashley | That's so interesting. |
| Leigh | Yeah, which seems very sane. |
| Ashley | Well, and that's been put on the table as like one potential way and everybody just screams, you're trying to take away our IVF? No, no. We're just trying to protect these women who I think, I mean, are just so exploited by, you know, a 10 billion. And I think you're so right that it so much of it is about money. And it was these articles were very telling, especially the the article about the billionaire because I was shocked when I read that 19 of the surrogates he used were in just two clinics. So they talk a big talk about, you know, we do these week long evaluate weeks long evaluations to make sure that you're not being coerced financially, that you're psychologically, you know, able to bear a child. Are you kidding me? And nobody figured out that there was 19 different women by one guy who were you know, and he was offering them like seven figures, which is ten times what the going rate is. |
| Leigh | Well, and I think that was the real red flag for I think it was Duke who said no. And one of his surrogates who said, no, we're not going to do this or I don't know whether she was an egg donor or a surrogate, but they were like, no, this is this is coercion. There's something weird here. We won't do it. So kudos to them. But it's I mean, and yeah, that's what I don't understand too is So he has 12 now. That's a lot. But we're Catholics. We know families with eight, nine, ten, 11, 12. And unlike the doctors who seemed I don't even know what their motivation could have been to use their own babies, they weren't going to be involved with who presumably raised by people they thought were their biological fathers. This guy, he is making these children for himself. He wants to be a father of these children. But why wouldn't he just get married? |
| Ashley | Well, this I thought was interesting, too, because, well, first of all, he seems mentally. |
| Leigh | Married and have babies with his wife. I mean, obviously, I think he got married a few times. |
| Ashley | Yeah. Well, he first of all, he seems a little bit unwell. I mean. yeah, the the description of the interview with him, he seemed very not all there, but he did make this remark about saving civilization. |
| Leigh | Yeah. |
| Ashley | And you know what? It reminded me of is Elon Musk, who has probably done more to raise awareness about our demographic crisis than anybody. And he's an interesting figure to do it because, you know, he's famous, he's a billionaire. And until he really aligned himself with Trump, he people did not think of him as a partizan. And he's he has been sounding the alarm about demographics long before he he teamed up with Trump. But I've always cautioned and you know pro-family Pro Naidoo list advocates to, you know, raise him up too high because yes, he has like eight kids, but he has them with all different women. And, you know, he is he is exploitative, as Lindbergh. No, but having children just to produce a lot of children to save demography, I mean, like, you know, what that reminds me of is The Handmaid's Tale. Like, yes, it's a slippery slope also to just say, as evidenced by this Lindbergh billionaire figure, that, you know, the ends 100% do not justify the means. And and Lindbergh had this kind of like manic quality about or ethos driving his desire to. So I don't I don't think it was about marriage and family. It was about you know, just like people are all about pumping out profits. It's like it's like he actually convinced himself that he was doing something good and worthwhile by creating as many tiny humans as possible, but then leaving them for his executive assistants to find them nannies and and homes. |
| Leigh | And while he's in jail. |
| Ashley | While he's in jail, he somehow managed to bring more children into the world. He told them. |
| Leigh | To spare no expense to make more babies. |
| Ashley | While incarcerated. So, yeah. |
| Leigh | You know, it's strange, though, at the very end of the article, he they say, you know, do you plan on having more? He's like, no, no. Twelfths plenty. But then he pauses and he says, Well, you know, if I have enough money And I guess he does a lot of like fasting and things to try to, you know, hack his aging. And he's like, if I'm young enough and well, I kind of feel like I have like a he thinks he has some kind of moral obligation to the embryos to like, you know, let them be unfrozen and and he actually says something very strange is that to see if there's human life in there. Well, what other kind of life would be in? You know, I think it just means that they could grow into humans. But it it was strange to talk about this moral obligation to his children in a certain sense. It's a it's a very, very strange thing. It also reminded me there's another couple who's been in the news maybe in the last year or so. The Collins is they live in Pennsylvania. They're pro nativist couple. I think they have a libertarian sort of bent. I think she's maybe even running for office or did run for office in Pennsylvania. I think they have four or five children right now, but they use only IVF and they are very particular about the genes they select for. She herself is she has autism and she uses the term autistic and they do not screen for the autism gene because she feels that, you know, is an enhancing factor for her. But they are they're a very strange face for the prenatal. It's because they only want to create this superior kind of baby. The lot of selections for it. And I don't I don't really know what the public reaction is to that couple. But I am I can't help but read any article that comes out about them. This strange curiosity. I mean, you hear about people having all these babies and you're like, wait a minute, what? |
| Ashley | Well, that's interesting that you raise that because Lindbergh clearly selected both women potential for potential egg donation and surrogates who were, you know, of a very certain type of racial profile. And and I it just sort of shocks me, although it does shock me that, you know, with all this, you know, virtue signaling about racial equality and and, you know, gender equality, equality between the sexes, I mean, in the United States, it's one of the only countries in the world where you can select the sex of your embryos. And it's something that's been denounced by World Health Organization, the United Nations, as you know, just a way to stigmatize girls and normal normalize these stigmatization, whether they're racial or ethnic or, you know, as you point out, you know, disability. And that's something we should be running from. And yet to go back to our original point, I mean, there's there's nothing there's no safeguards. In fact, I was shocked to read the clinics don't even have to report anything. They don't have to report failures like this. And there was you know, there's some kind of like body or entity, but complying with their what I guess are essentially recommendations. |
| Leigh | The American Association of Reproductive Medicine or something. |
| Ashley | Yeah, it's voluntary. And I mean, it makes the abortion industry look well regulated, working industry is less regulated than like podiatry. So and, you know, the process that these women go through, especially for egg donation, egg retrieval is is horrifying. I mean, it's this is not just getting a tooth pulled. So I don't know where where do we I I'd be curious to know your thoughts on, you know, Donald Trump has said that he wants to make IVF. I forget exactly what he said, but basically, I think mandatory or universal coverage or something. And, you know, it's clear that from a political perspective, the pro-life movement doesn't quite know how to handle this because we don't, you know, want to appear we don't want to feed their narrative that this is some kind of a I don't know what they think A Handmaid's Tale, even though the irony. |
| Leigh | Or like the whole argument that we only care about embryos, we don't care about women and we don't care about children once they're born, we're just an embryo obsessive. |
| Ashley | Right? |
| Leigh | Right. |
| Ashley | So, you know, how do we how do we I mean, I think it's it's a positive sign that as you said, the secular media is is actually really starting to put a spotlight on some of these abuse stories. And, you know, they're clearly still doing it with the disclaimer that they're rare. But how do we how do we talk about this issue in a way that doesn't cause people to run away because they're afraid of, you know, extremism or whatever? |
| Leigh | Yeah, that's a really good question, because it does seem, politically speaking anyway, a sort of how do you get the toothpaste back in the tube situation, which are, you know, it's very messy indeed. But I think I think there has to be some sort of and whether or not people care about it or not. But I think that there are people who rely too much on this, what they that they think is the success rates that go along with things like energy and IVF, even pre-implantation genetic diagnosis. And I think that when people realize, you know, even this article pointed out, well, I don't remember which article it was 2% of the pregnancies, you know, where I think in certain circles it certainly would seem like more. I think that the money that people are making with increasing, I think all of this, you know, can make a woman feel good in the moment. But they're doing something proactive, you know, to preserve their reproductive capability. But it's I think people really need to understand the real the real odds of successfully conceiving with these things. I mean, you know, you hear many women go through many. I think it can be a 25% success rate. I'm not sure about that. But it's not it's not a guarantee. It's not a guarantee for a baby. And again, even if you don't have the view on, you know, life begins at conception, you know, the way Catholics do or, you know, disbelieve in the teachings about IVF, about, you know, learn about the sexual act between husband and wife and, you know, to live and procreative ideas. I think that once you realize that what you're doing to yourself, like you say like this is terrible procedures to retrieve the eggs and just for one and being exploitative by these clinics who are a for profit organization, I think that people won't be pushing to have that covered so much universally. I mean, how universally covered this is not this is just not an every person's problem. You know, And I think also, you know, this is something I think that a lot of people, you know, aren't ready to hear. But I think it's true that I think that, you know, there's a reason why women eventually enter perimenopause and menopause and and naturally become infertile. Right. And to promise women that, don't worry, you can't cheat biology, you know. And I mean, I've seen some crazy articles about women into their fifties and sixties having them. And I don't know I think that like, is that is that something that insurance should cover? Like, what is insurance? I mean, I you know, I think that those are all things that we'll have to talk about. And I think they have to be all sort of individualized conversations that wind up in some sort of, you know, more union or nationwide awareness. |
| Ashley | Well, I certainly was thinking as I was reading these articles that certainly we need to do more to raise awareness about the beauty of adoption. Because, you know, in the article about the babies that were switched, they this is The New York Times, they plainly stated that, you know, the science has shown that a child placed into a loving and nurturing home through they didn't say adoption, but they, you know, can have grow up very much. You know, it can succeed, can be set up for success. And I thought, you know, how much heartbreak and agony, physical and emotional could be avoided if people knew that, you know, the loving option of adoption is is a way to is a different path. And I know that you're doing that early with the book that you're working on. And we look forward to that. And I'm so glad we were able to connect and talk about this difficult topic that I think, you know, we're going to have to have a lot of conversations about because it's clearly coming to the forefront of our political conversations. And I think that's a good thing. |
| Leigh | Me, too. And they have to be done so delicately because people that we know and love are affected by these issues and the children that are created through IVF. And I think that there are ways to talk about it that are, you know, are loving and kind. And that's what we have to really focus on. |
| Ashley | Absolutely. Well, thank you, Lee, for joining me today. And for our listeners, make sure to sign up for our own daily email for all the best in Catholic news. And we hope the Advent season is off to a good start for you and your families. We'll be right back. Stay tuned right here on EWTN. Welcome to Conversations with Consequences here on EWTN Radio. I'm your hostess, Ashley McGuire. And this weekend, some Maryland events are taking place in Paris with the long awaited reopening of the Notre-Dame Cathedral. Hi. This has been five years in the making after a devastating fire, and we are happy to have with us again today. And she is the European correspondent for the National Catholic Register. Welcome to the show, Solène. Thank you for having me. So, you know, who can forget that devastating day, I think, for everybody was sort of surreal to watch as Notre-Dame lit up in flames and the fire just got away and watching the spire come down and the roof collapsed. So it's it's sort of extraordinary to be here at the other end of it with it reopens this weekend. And, you know, there's been some negative publicity. But honestly, I think most people are really amazed and in awe of this extraordinary undertaking. What's what's your initial reaction of of the restoration of this jewel of Paris? |
| Solène Tadié | Yes, You know, I think I mean, most people are, of course, you know, they love the cathedral and many people aren't happy that it's just, you know, being restored to public worship and, you know, even for nonbelievers, it is such a jewel of the middle age. It's probably the most perfect gothic monument in the world. So, of course, you know, everyone have been missing it. But the controversy is we're not you know, it's there was a lot at stake because since day one, there has been a desire to rebuild the cathedral with contemporary gesture and, you know, to remove the spire that is that everyone loves that was designed by Architect Leduc, that he's a very famous architect. And and, you know, I think I think the controversy would have been healthy all along because it has prevented a lot of craziness from happening there. So. So yes, but people are genuinely happy today. |
| Ashley | Yeah. You know, I think there is so much worry that modern there is going to be a modernism run away. And so what a relief to see the way the restoration really took care with great lengths to go back to its original everything really. I mean, I, I read that they, they use like little pieces of the limestone to trace exactly where that came from and to use that same limestone from the same geographic quarry where it needed to be repaired or replaced. And and one of the things that I read that I really thought was incredible was that the Masons had to relearn Gothic architecture to rebuild the roof. And so what a beautiful thing to see such care go, go into this restoration. |
| Solène Tadié | Yes. And they use words from friends as well. They really try to make it really French and to rediscover the know how of the craftsmen across the country. And I think that's, you know, nowadays with our modernism and everything, that was something that was really wanted by people needed. |
| Ashley | Right. You know, there's been a little bit of the way that Notre Dame has been talked about with the buzz in the lead up to this weekend. You know, sometimes is almost a little bit secular, like it's just this kind of landmark, no different than the Eiffel Tower. And yet it's obviously so much more than that, you know, and you you still and grew up in Paris and you you've lived abroad all over the world. But to you as a Parisian, what do you see as the true identity and and meaning and symbolism of of this beautiful cathedral. |
| Solène Tadié | For the French? Of course, it's probably the main symbol of our nation. And it's you know, we are now the country of laicité. And even even people who are completely anti-Christian feel like they belong to the cathedral as well. And during the fire, passers by just stop there. And even non-Christians, they were trying right in front of the cathedral and they were like watching it helplessly. And I know countless people were unbelievers were like crying all evening and and so it has been part of our history. You know, it's it's it's it was built during the Middle Ages and and and we have these it all started with King Saint Louis who brought the really the really the true cross inside the relic of the crown of thorns sorry to the cathedral and and then, you know, it became part of our history because for the worse and better because also during the darkest moments of our history, it was still there During the French Revolution, for instance, it was turned into a temple of reason where there was a clause of the of the supreme being and that was also a symbol of this kind of revolutionary oppression. And at the same time, that was also there. That's Emperor Napoleon from Napoleon. The first was was from the emperor. You know, our whole history is kind of engraved in that place. And so it is completely in this in this associate, both from from who we are, from from the soul of France, but from from the day it burns. The archbishop of the time, Michel Petit, as always, say that, you know, this place exists not because it's a monument, but because of the real presence. And he always highlighted the fact that the cathedral was not really worth saving for something else. It was a bit of a bold statement, but at the same time, I mean, yes, that's there is nothing it's not even close to the Eiffel Tower in terms of visitors. Every year. This place is unique, especially to witness a lot of very strong conversions. And and we cannot compare it to any kind of monuments. There is something special there because of the real presence. And something else that we'd like to add from from that perspective. I don't know if you remember the face of this wonderful firefighter father Mark Fournier, who saved the relics. |
| Ashley | Tell our listeners about that story. Because speaking of the real presence and to your point that the cathedral is so much more than just another monument, there are so many kind of miraculous things that happen, things that statues that were saved. But, you know, please, this the story of Father Fournier and and what he did to save the Blessed Sacrament. Remind us of that story. |
| Solène Tadié | Yes, Father Fournier. So, you know, his face became so famous all around the world because he wrote it inside the cathedral along with other firefighters. Jonathan is a priest for Global, but he's he's the kind of a chaplain to firefighters, but also a firefighter himself. So he wrote inside the cathedral to rescue the Blessed Sacrament, the crown of thorns and that unique of King Saint Louis. That's our invaluable value. So he he so he rushed inside that why the flames had already consumed a big part of the cathedral. So and then I could interview him at the end of I think just a few days after, after The Blaze and he told me, you know, it's, you know, these relics, although they're only objects, you know, that's they are part of all of our faith. That's, you know, that's that's enable us to remember why we are Christians, why these objects, they connect us to Christ. And so that was completely worth risking his life. But he also said in this interview, you know, I wouldn't have rushed inside the cathedral for just random objects. It's because these objects are the real presence and because of the sanctity of the security of these of these elements. And so he quoted the Archbishop Petit at that time in saying all this was worth saving and was risking our lives because of what it represents, because because of the work of King Selby's, because it represents the beauty of our faith, which is the highest expression of thanks of our faith. |
| Ashley | So it's so interesting to recall that. And I was just cleaning something out of my shed and saw the book by Archbishop Charles you, the title of which is Things Worth Dying For. And, you know, clearly, you wouldn't put your life at risk, as you say, for for just objects that, as you point out, they have so much deeper meaning and and their holy, they're sacred. And the real presence is the source and sustenance. The Eucharist is the source and sustenance of our of our faith. And what a you know, what a extraordinary and miraculous thing that he did and in such a in such a tragic moment. So then I know you also know a lot about some of the interesting history and symbolism and of Notre-Dame. And you have a lot of facts and I'd love to get a few of those in for our listeners. I believe one of them that I didn't know is that Notre-Dame is actually built on four churches and that the choir is in the shape of Christ sagging head. What does this mean? |
| Solène Tadié | So as before, before it was ever built, you had previous church that was destroyed from, you know, the antique times before the Middle Ages. And so and so then, you know, one after the other churches were destroyed and rebuilt and so you had remaining of these previous buildings there. So the first one dates back from the fourth century, and it was an early Paleo Christian style. And so then this kind of shape so that when the cathedral was built, the choir of the cathedral and it's really a detail I love, is it? So the choir has the shape of a Christ's sagging head. You know, the whole shape of the choir is just mentioned. And when you see it from above, when you see the the map of the cathedral, it's it is meant to draw the shape of Christ sagging head on the cross. You know, when you when he was crucified and and you know like no detail is left, you know, to to to sense everything is calculated so precisely according to perfect plan, which is absolutely amazing. |
| Ashley | You've also written that the architecture is designed to reflect something called the golden ratio. What is that? |
| Solène Tadié | Yes, I think it's quite fascinating even for people who, you know, are not obsessed with math, mathematics or architecture. But this famous golden ratio, it's it's Arezzo, a number that helps you reach perfect harmony in a building. So it is the results of this mathematical rule that's actually if you look around like back then it was applied by many medieval cathedral builder. So to achieve this ratio, it's a ratio between the height of the facade, any width that must be as close as possible to the number of feet. That's around 1.6, 680 or something like that. And in the case of Notre-Dame, the rescue of its facade is around 1.7. And so it's it is so to form the, you know, the so-called golden rectangle that creates this perfect harmony, that's why we find it so perfect. So an inexplicably perfect. |
| Ashley | That's absolutely fascinating. And another thing that you've pointed out that I didn't know is so we all know the famous adage, all, all roads lead to Rome. But pointed out that Notre Dame is actually the point of origin for all roads in France. Am I putting that correctly? |
| Solène Tadié | Yes, yes, yes. It is one of the fun facts, you know, that people, like many people, would know that the cities that you need to know, but most people will know that probably those who knew the roads of France pretty well. But but yes, that was established actually by King Louis, the 15th in the in the 18th century. It's it was decided at Notre Dame again, you know, that's that's the symbol of our nation. But that's also so logically, that's where the king decided that all roads would start from that point, that be, you know, the starting point to calculate the distance between villages, between towns, so that, you know, to calculate the roads and everywhere, all these roads would converge in front of the cathedral. And so but there was no, no precise point, nothing to immortalize that. But it was just something that was part of the practice. But now it happened in the 19th century. You know, the the administration in Paris decided to really have something place on the cathedral forecourt. And this slab that he's now that has no shape of the compass. ROSE It's it's very nice. So you can you can go there, actually go to it for quotes and see and see this compass. ROSE to immortalize the fact that all the roads in France stops there. Exactly. |
| Ashley | Well, I know things are different now in the sense that in in not just in France, but in much of Europe, Christianity is no longer really at the heart of civilization. And yet I was recently in France myself and wound up at a church church Thomas Dekker, Church of Thomas Aquinas. I was stunned at how full the church was and families and young children. And so we just have a couple of minutes left. But what's your what's your take as someone who grew up in France and is living in Europe as to the state of of Christianity right now in Paris and in the West, really? |
| Solène Tadié | Yeah. When we look at realities like that, there is always a lot of reasons to despair. But then when you look, you get a closer look at the situation. Are so many reasons to hope, and especially in France, because France is a breeding ground for this kind of renewal of the faith, especially among the youth. That's incredible. You know, our many churches that are always completely packed. There are many initiatives on which I love to report on. So the register, whether in different parts of France, of course, there is this massive attraction of the youth for the traditional mass, but also, you know, more charismatic movements, that's for sure. But, you know, even, you know, beautiful liturgy in general, but so not necessarily tried or, you know, it must be beautiful. You know, that's that's basically the criteria that he's bringing back young people to church. But you see also this incredibly successful pilgrimage of shot that he's now retreat, refusing people, refusing, you know, pilgrims because they're not coming from around the world to do this pilgrimage from Paris to Charlotte. And and because there is this attraction to both beauty, to transcendence, you know, to something that is greater to us. And so I think this whole generation, this whole period where, you know, this secularization, very aggressive secularization and anti-clerical ism is ending right now. So we'll have other challenges. But I also see like this young this new young generation rising up, thirsty for something greater and and yeah that's that's opened up an avenue for their church and their church really shouldn't lose shouldn't miss this opportunity. |
| Ashley | Well let's hope that the this grand reopening of Notre Dame is symbolic of of a new beginning or, as you say, a revival of Christianity. And in France and in Europe, that and that its beauty is is very much a part of that, as you say, that that's part of what brings people, what inspires people. And raises our eyes to God. |
| Solène Tadié | So thank God I knew that 47 people, almost half of the whole French population is already planning on attending, you know, visiting the cathedral right after the reopening. So that's going to be like millions of people flocking there. So hopefully well and. |
| Ashley | Millions more, I'm sure, watching it on television. Well, what a beautiful moment to learn more about Celine, Teddy, catch all of her writings at the National Catholic Register by visiting NC, Register NBC.com. And thank you so much, Selin, for marking this extraordinary moment with us here on Conversations with Consequences. |
| Solène Tadié | Thank you very much, Ashley. |
| Ashley | And now Father Roger Landry offers us a thought provoking homily to prepare us for this Sunday's gospel. |
| Fr. Landry | This is Father Roger Landry, and it's a privilege for me to be with you as we enter into the consequential conversation. The reason which we choose one with each of us this Sunday. So we meet his forerunner, his Herald Saint John the Baptist at the Jordan River. John was chosen and sent by God the Father to get his people ready to receive Jesus Son when he had last openly manifested himself to begin his public ministry at the Jordan John Blair. Not I am the one crying out in the desert, but rather I am the voice of one crying out in the desert. John was the loudspeaker. The spokesperson The one crying out was, of course, the word Christ. Jesus himself was about to spend 40 days on a retreat in that very Judean desert from which John was proclaiming. John's message, therefore, was God's message, which John was screaming at the top of his powerful lungs. The message urgent and clear Prepare the way of the Lord, make straight its pads. The ancient world. The roads were a mess. Every time there was a battle, the roads would be attacked and bridges destroyed to try to stop the advance of the enemy. The weather took its toll as well, leading to all types of serious potholes and other obstacles. Any time a dignitary would be coming, he would either have to fix the road to build new ones so that the rolling caravan accompanying him could arrive without delay and hassle. John the Baptist is telling us to get ready for the Lord whom we're constantly bidding to come this advent. We too need to prepare away. We too need to make straight the paths in the ancient world. Preparing such a path meant a great deal of manual work. Quoting the prophet Isaiah, John says, Every valley shall be filled, every mountain. He'll be made low and the crooked shall be made straight. And the rough was made smooth. We have to call those topographical formations by their proper names. We have to make low the mountains of our pride and egocentrism. We have to fill in the valleys that come from a shallow prayer life, a minimalistic way of living our faith. We have to straighten out whatever crooked paths we've been walking. If we've been involved in some secret sins or sinful behaviors, the Lord calls us to John the Baptist to end it. If we've been involved in some dishonest behaviors, we're called to straighten them and do restitution. If we've been harboring grudges or hatred or failing to reconcile with others, now's the time to clear away all the debris. And if we've been pushing God off the side of the road, if we've been saying to him that we don't really have time for him, now's the time to get our priorities straight. The gift of Advent will succeed or fail on the basis of how well we convert and clear our lives of sin so that the Lord may come to us. There's a reason why John the Baptist preached at the Jordan River, but was more than just a source of water where it could baptize the Jordan was the place that represented the border between the desert, with the Jews wandering aimlessly for 38 years after centuries of slavery in Egypt and the promised Land. By preaching his message there, John was inviting the Jews of his day to come out of the bondage of slavery, to leave their faults and wandering sinful lies behind and enter into the promised land full of God's blessings. The Baptist preaches the same thing to us. This Sunday, he points to a new exodus from death to life, from sin to sanctity takes very clearly to the path from the desert into the new promised land is through conversion and the forgiveness of sins to convert means to more than to eliminate a bad habit. The Greek word for conversion is met a wet, which means to rethink and question one's whole way of living judging, not according to polls and the lives of celebrities, but seeing our whole life through the eyes of God, striving to make the love of God and others. The measuring criteria of our life to convert means resolving to live the way Jesus Christ lived and taught us to live means ultimately a death and resurrection in which we die to the old Adam and begin to live a new life with grace by means of the forgiveness of sins. One of the biggest challenges for the Church in the United States is that so many Christians are trying to live like everyone else lives rather than as Christ does in the Saints do. Rather than allow our faith to be leaven that lifts the whole world up, we permit the toxins of the world to enter our hearts, our homes, and even our churches. We take our categories not from God, but from worldly gurus. The venerable Archbishop, Fulton J. Sheen, who died 45 years ago this Monday. My predecessor, I'm proud to say for 16 years, is the national director of the Society of the Propagation of the Faith, and for whose beatification we ardently pray used to say that once upon a time, only Catholics believed in the Immaculate Conception. Now, he said, everyone believes his immaculate conceived because the world, in other words, doesn't like conversion. We downplay our need for it, pretending we're not sinners who need God's forgiveness. We live in a self-affirmation age in which we want to avoid taking responsibility for our choices. A therapeutic age in which we run to counselors and psychiatrists and psychologists trying to deal with our guilt and often with the consequence of our own and others sinful choices. But without going to Jesus and those he sent out to absolve our guilt and take away our sins, the Sun John the Baptist tells us all of our need to turn away from our worldly standard sins, idols, and to reach out for God's mercy, beginning truly to believe in Jesus face our life on Jesus, walk with Jesus and help others to join Him in us. John the Baptist mission, however, was not merely to announce the need for repentance and conversion but to point out how sins would be forgiven wasn't just baptism in the Jordan, which at John's time was just a sign of the need for the forgiveness of sins without the power yet to remove those ends, John told the people, One more powerful than I is coming after me. I'm not worthy to stoop down and untied the songs of his sandals. A short time later, he saw that more powerful one coming to him at the Jordan and exclaimed, Behold the LAMB of God who takes away the sins of the world. Jesus would be the one who would take away what the baptism in the Jordan signified needed to be removed. If John were physically present among us in 2024, dressed in his famous camel hair and leather belt, he'd say to us, Behold, the one of whom I was speaking. Behold the LAMB of God who comes to take away your sins in the sins of the world in his hands would point us both to the baptismal font, where a need for forgiveness is met by God's merciful power, and then to the confessional, where the LAMB of God, through his priest, continues to take away our sins, for which he paid such a precious price on Calvary. We're much better off than John the Baptist First listeners just for them to make straight the paths level the mountains, fill in the valleys, rebuild the bridges and straighten the roads. And earthly life was infinitely more complicated than it is now with our dump trucks, backhoes, bulldozers, Army Corps of Engineers, and so much more so spiritually. It's likewise much easier for us today. We don't have to repair roads with their bare hands, with buckets of dirt, primitive mantles. And if we're lucky, a few oxen got himself, provides the heavy equipment. It's one of the most it's in the sacrament of penance, where God himself, with all the power of heaven, does the heavy lifting. One of the most important things we need to do in Advent is make a thorough confession, where we examine for the peaks that need to be flattened, the deep holes that need to be filled, the serpentine ways that need to be strained, straightened and then come to the Lord for mercy. This offer, Divine mercy, is why the Baptist's message of conversion. Each advent is such good news. It's an expression of God's love. He's giving us a second chance, or a third or seventh time. Seventh chance. It's an announcement that the king is coming and wants to meet us, but he doesn't want to ambush us by visiting us when our spiritual out is a disaster area deserving a FEMA fund. Through the work of the Baptist in the church, God announced that he's coming and he gives us the chance. Not to mention his help to clean our house, house to welcome and fittingly, the call to converge in his proclamation. No matter what we've done, God's forgiveness is greater. His mercy is stronger than any and every human misery. We're sinners, Yes, but God comes to save us from those sins. Heaven rejoices more for one repentant sinner. Jesus tells us that for 99 he never needed to repent, that so far he's the only one who never needed to repent is the mother of God, whose immaculate conception was celebrated on Monday with the day of obligation. We and we know that she please God immeasurably by her constant fiat, we begin to see just how central conversion and forgiveness are. The sacrament God established out of his whole plans, conversion and conversion and coming to receive God's mercy is the best way for us to prepare for his coming in the past in Bethlehem the conversion and coming to receive God's mercy is the most fitting meet for us to prepare for His coming at the end of time or at the end of our time, whichever comes first conversion and coming to receive God's mercy. The most appropriate advent practices for us to receive Him in the sacrament and prayer, especially in the Holy Eucharist. On the second Sunday of Advent, each year. I love to finish with the words of the beautiful hymn that so many Catholic parishes sing on this Sunday. They summarize the entire message that Jesus crying out in the wilderness gives us on the second Sunday of Advent through John the Baptist, his forerunner on Jordan's bank, the Baptist cry announces that the Lord is nigh awake and hark, and for He brings glad tidings from the King of kings, then cleansed, Be every soul from sin, Make straight the path of God within prepare we in our hearts a home where such a mighty guest may come. That mighty guest is coming. Let's get ready Anteriorly through confession and the forgiveness of our sins. To run out, to meet him. God bless you. |
| Ashley | Thank you, Father Roger Landry. Make sure to catch all of his great work at Catholic Preaching Icon, or you can follow his writings at the National Catholic Register. Go to NC, register dotcom, and until next time, we wish you all the very best and you go with our prayers. |