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Episode Description
Marking five years since the start of the pandemic, Msgr. Roger Landry discusses the many moments of grace and mercy when COVID shut down the entire world. Lamenting the lack of access to the sacraments and recalling many lessons learned since the global state of emergency, the team also notes the real unsung heroes of the pandemic: Catholic schools.
Coming up for air while deep into writing a book about adoption, TCA colleague Leigh Snead shares the real dangers of IVF and the many joys found in being an adoptive mother. Approximately 20,000 children age out of the foster system every year in the US, never having been adopted into a family. While the US adoption rate has declined slightly in recent years, the number of children waiting for families remains steady.
The TCA team also delves into what they are giving up for Lent – and how best to unite one’s suffering to the cross during this penitential season.
Bios
Monsignor Roger Landry is a priest of the Diocese of Fall River, Massachusetts. He writes for numerous publications, speaks on radio and TV, and is the author of the book, Plan of Life: Habits to Help You Grow Closer to God. A graduate of Harvard and the Pontifical North American College in Rome, he served as Attaché to the Holy See’s Permanent Observer Mission to the UN in New York. Father Landry traversed the full 1500-mile Eucharist Pilgrimage in 2024 and joined the historic Eucharistic Congress in Indianapolis, an event which coincided with his 25th year in the priesthood. He was recently appointed the new National Director of the Pontifical Mission Societies in the USA.
Leigh Fitzpatrick Snead is a co-host for the nationally syndicated radio show, Conversations with Consequences, and a Fellow for The Catholic Association. A writer, editor, and speaker, her work has appeared in the National Catholic Register, Washington Times, and many other media outlets. She took her doctoral studies as a John Quasten Fellow at the Catholic University of America and the School of Philosophy, and earned her Bachelor of Arts from St. Johns College in Annapolis, Maryland. A former fashion and travel editor for Theology of Home, she serves on the Executive Board of Human Life. Leigh lives in Indiana with her husband and four children. She is currently writing a book on being an adoptive mother.
The following transcript is machine generated.
Episode 308 Transcript
| Ashley | Hello friends, and welcome to Conversations with Consequences. We are the radio show and podcast of the Catholic Association where we aim to change the culture one conversation at a time. You can listen to conversations with consequence US on the EWTN Global Catholic Radio Network Saturday mornings at 7 a.m. Eastern or catch the encore at 5 p.m.. We are also on Sirius XM Channel 130. Of course, our radio show is also a podcast. Go to the Catholic Association dot org or directly to wherever you listen to your podcast. |
| Mary | I'm your hostess, Mary Fiorito. |
| Ashley | And I'm Ashley McGuire. |
| Mary | And we are happy to have Monsignor Roger Landry with us. You know him as a regular member of our team that has provided exceptionally thought provoking homilies at the end of each of our programs. But with his new position and schedule, he's now joining us in person every week to touch base on all the great things he's doing now as national director of the Pontifical Mission Societies. And we can't really thank you enough, Monsignor, for all that you do. You've been terrific to our TCA family as our team chaplain. This week is an important milestone as we mark five years since the start of the COVID pandemic. And in many ways, we're still climbing out of that hole that was left behind. So welcome, Monsignor Landry. |
| Msgr. Landry | Great to be with you, Mary. Great to be with you, Ashley. Yes, we are growing out of it. And last month we saw some promising numbers that basically mass attendance has returned to pre March 2020 numbers in a lot of the places of the country. And so that's really good news. We had lost a third of the people. Church churches opened again. And that is devastating to us losing one out of every three of the children of God who should be augmenting our own worship. But thanks be to God over the course of time and the new stability, many of the people have come back to the father's house, which is one of the great Lenten themes, too. |
| Mary | Yeah, well, praise God. You know what? I'm in Chicago, Father. And so we did not have our obligation restored for about two years after the start of the pandemic. And what I noticed in my parish, and it's a very typical Catholic urban parish with a big parish school, etc., the older people were all back as soon as they could be. You know, people like my husband and myself with older adult children were back, but the young families did not come back. They virtually vanished. |
| Msgr. Landry | That's a general rule in the faith that many of our most faithful people are a little bit higher on the actuarial tables. When in New England you have massive thunderstorms and likewise big snowstorms when you open up the church door to 27 inches of snow, you've got the 80 year old women out there and you don't have the construction workers with their pickup trucks and their plows generally there. You know, and so we saw that likewise in COVID. Let's give credit where credit is due to those seniors who love the Lord so much that they're always going to be showing on up, even when it requires a little bit of risk and great effort. And like, we want that to be an example for everybody drawing us backward to the extent that's possible. Because just like there's the widow with her might in the Gospel, who out of her generosity was singled out by the Lord. So sometimes you see that same love that led to that might shown in showing up for daily mass, even in the midst of a pandemic, even in the midst of a snow storm, even in the midst of weather or other circumstances that could keep many others away. But what's curious, in New England, a lot not to be cynical on the days in which people don't come to mass somehow they're still able to get to the malls and to the supermarkets. We just need to make sure and we heard it in last Sunday's gospel that we're trying to help people to hunger for every word that comes from God's mouth, even more than the natural hunger we have for the way that he fills our tables each day. |
| Mary | Right. And that the obligations there for a reason. I think that's something that's lost on a current generation. And, you know, in part it's because they weren't well characterized, but in part I think it is in particular, this generation doesn't accept imposed obligations easily. |
| Msgr. Landry | That's a good insight. And sometimes even those who did understand the obligations were understanding them under a perspective of fear that if I don't do this, I could go to hell if I voluntarily miss Sunday Mass rather than out of love saying God has come from heaven to this altar in order to meet me and feed me. How could anything short of a loving response be worthy of his own generosity? And so there was a time in which people, because they didn't want everybody motivated by fear, started to downplay the obligation that should always be principally motivated by love in the same way that even there's not a commandment for us to call our mother on her birthday and say that I love you back to somebody who loves us. So in response to the Lord, even though there's an obligation for most of us, we shouldn't need an obligation to get there. But the obligation cannot help in the training of our love. |
| Ashley | You know, Monsignor, I had a friend who's a priest in Rome, and as we all recall, Italy was, you know, a few weeks ahead of us with the pandemic. And for a while it seemed like maybe this would be something that would be isolated to Italy. And I remember he called me and he said, you need to go to confession as soon as possible, because you may not be able to for a while. And I thought, what? And I was like, okay, if he's telling me I'm going. And so I went. I raced down to the church with my kids, as was Saturday evening, and they had just ended it early. And this sounds so melodramatic, but I remember coming out and hearing this kokrokoo and it was so spooked out. And the next morning they had essentially, quote unquote canceled masses. But it was just such a strange time for the lady. I remember months later we were driving somewhere. We saw a priest and I joked, Should we kidnap him so we could say confessions? But what was it like for you as a priest? I mean, the lady, we all remember what it was like, but what was it like for you to not be in in contact with the people that you're used to ministering to on a day to day basis? |
| Msgr. Landry | So you're asking me to say on air a few things that I haven't said publicly, but I'll share them because it's five years later. I was working for the Holy See at the United Nations at the time, and so the Holy See is extraterritorial property. And so we had a chapel there that I helped to renovate and I was celebrating several masses each day there for laypeople who, if they could get to the Holy See's mission once they were in the Holy See's mission, nobody could enter without the permission of the Holy See. And so as it started at 5:00 in the morning, and then I'd do another one at 530, another one at six is more people were looking to have a chance to be able to come and receive the Lord. But the whole reason why I exist, the whole reason why a priest exists, is to be able to give the sacraments to people. And like the people likewise have a right to the sacraments, but they also have a hunger for the sacraments. And so there was no way I could shut that stuff down. I wanted to do it in a way that wasn't creating disorder. I wanted to do it in a way that wasn't embarrassing anybody. But like I had certain confrontations over the time of COVID, by the way, certain people would prioritize their obedience. And so some, for example, would obey. I would prioritize the obedience to the civil law, others to church law, others to, in my opinion, a higher law in terms of what the sacraments mean, how Jesus wants to give. And so like I was, in addition to celebrating the masses, receiving a lot of people just coming to receive Holy Communion, they had watched a virtual mass and they were meeting me in a garden close to where I live, where I had the Blessed Sacrament with me. And they'd come on up and I'd give them the Lord Jesus so often. I mean, I would always have my stall on me. And they were in the middle of a park. I'd be able to hear a confession because I speak various languages. If they could speak a language that nobody could eavesdrop on, we didn't need to be breathing each other's breaths. But it was a time for me in which I was living a little bit What Saint Charles Borromeo inspired all the priests to do in 1576 and the terrible plague of Milan, where he was out there with the people, even though he could die. And he challenged the priests of Milan. He said, Listen, in the early church, many priests, when they were certain they would die if they celebrated mass, they'd get arrested and then they'd be given a chance to put a pinch of incense on charcoal. If they didn't, there'd be tortured and murdered publicly. Even when they knew that they would die, they would still do what was their duty as a priest, duty as a Christian. I'm not even saying you're certain to die. You've just got to be willing to risk your life for others so that they were able to receive the Lord Jesus. And he says, I'm risk in my life. And if you happen to catch the plague, please recognize that your archbishop himself will come to anoint you before you meet the Lord Jesus. I'll climb a pile of bodies if I have to, to get there. And you know, that has always been something that's deeply inspired me as a priest. Being a priest during COVID in 2020 was nowhere near as dramatic as that. But I did have to take various risks in order to care for people who were sick before we really knew. But listen, at the end of the day, we've all signed up to follow a crucified guy. We've all basically said, we're going to deny ourselves, pick up our graves every day following to death, because we're confident that if we live and die in him, we will live forever. That type of behavior drove me to try to make the sacraments accessible as possible without embarrassing anybody else. And I have to say, I'm so proud of so many my brother priests across the country who likewise with great creativity trying to play within legitimate lines, were celebrating mass upon mass upon mass, when they could only celebrate for ten were celebrating masses in parking lots. Despite the wintry cold where we're hearing confessions literally everywhere that it could be possible. We're going out and anointing whenever it was possible, even taking great risks or great conveniences, inconveniences when the have to spend more or less an hour just putting the gear on in a hospital in order to be able to get to somebody. But but while there's a friend of mine in Germany, sorry for being long winded today, but there's a friend of mine who is a bishop in Germany, a good bishop in Germany, who is very, very faithful. He said COVID made good priests better and COVID made those of us who are lazy bishops, priests, laypeople, etc., COVID made those of us who are lazy, even lazier. And so I rejoice that COVID was a time to test my priestly mettle. I remember back the hunger of people to be able to receive the Lord. You know, one of the reasons why I think we're getting so many osseo candidates during these days that we're getting so much greater love among the young people for the faith is because COVID showed just how important God is. When God was taken away, easy access was taken away, that overall people are starting to make up for lost time. It didn't happen immediately. We lost a third of the people. But now, now we're starting to get it back. And I'm hopeful that we're going to continue to grow more strong. |
| Mary | Woman Senior I'm sure everyone has their COVID horror story, their sacramental COVID horror story and mine. I had a younger sister who got a very, very acute case of COVID and was in our local Catholic hospital, her neighborhood Catholic hospital, on a ventilator, unconscious. And I called a priest friend who was one of those trained COVID priests, you know, and he put on his beekeeper suit and he went to the hospital, you know, to give her last rites. She wound up not dying. But at the time, we did think she was dying and she was very acute. He goes to the hospital in his beekeeper suit. He has all the proper documentation and they would not let him in to anoint her. They would not let him in. And I, I have I get very emotional when I think about it. He tried he called me. He said, Mary, I'm so sorry. I tried that. Wouldn't I did everything. But they would not, you know, I it's very hard for me, you know, as a as a Catholic, to not feel very resentful towards towards not I mean, not the church universally, but that here was a dying person who wanted whose family wanted the sacraments for her and the Catholic hospital wouldn't using all the proper precautions, wouldn't let them in to be with her at the time when she thought she was at the hour of death. And I know God would have made adjustments for her knowing she wanted it. Her family tried to arrange it for her, but do you have I know many good things came out of COVID, right, that you've just mentioned, But still, I think there's a lot of anger among the Christian community about what happened to us and old people dying along, you know, and people not being allowed to have funerals with anyone. My uncle passed away during COVID. We had seven people were allowed to come to the funeral where they came up with seven, I don't know, but seven could go. |
| Msgr. Landry | There is a lot of holy anger as a result of some of the decisions that were made. We need to be understanding about those making decisions. One of the things that I observed, I'm I'm a Harvard trained biochemist. I worked at Mass General Hospital for four years. I get science, I'm a bioethicist, you name it. And what was shocking to me is the scientific illiteracy of so many of the people who are making the decisions in government, in the church, in schools, you name it. But a lot of the times they were really vulnerable to pseudo science and behavioral control masquerading as if it's a scientific conclusion. So, for example, if there's anybody who knows how to put a host on somebody's tongue, it's a priest who's done it tens of millions of times in his life. And to treat that as the most contagious action of all time is unbelievable to me what was going on on a couple of levels. First, we've been living with a practical materialism for a long time, which means we focus on the body, we focus on physical health more than we do on the transcendent and the health of the person. So we need to keep those in balance. Both are important, and there certainly would have been ways to be able to meet both needs while minimizing the risk without totally eliminating the risk. But while minimizing the risk. And we needed to make some of those compromises. But many of the people in decision making positions didn't know enough about germs and how they're passed on and everything else like this, such that they were relying on scientific advisers coming from people who thought hyper cautiousness was a virtue rather than a vice. There's a proper prudence that is a virtue. But like when when people are phobic with all these irrational fears, making these calls just in case something bad could happen, that's when we made the decisions that we saw during COVID. Thankfully, many of the churchmen have realized that they went overboard. They were too reliant on the advice that they were getting. They regret the decisions that they made, etc. If I were a bishop at the time, first thing I would have done. You know, a priest is only supposed to celebrate two masses each day with the second mass being for some type of real pastoral emergency. I would have immediately given priests the capacity to celebrate as many masses as possible. If the civil government saying only ten people can come to a mass. And I think the seven number that you had was ten in the church, minus the priests and perhaps two others, the organist or somebody else for the mass. But if they're saying only ten people can come, okay, livestream it and then just give Holy Communion to ten in waves or just celebrate ten masses during the day. Sorry, what else are we going to be doing during that? Which would be nearly as valuable if, if there were a pandemic in which people might be totally fine today and in the ground in five days, why wouldn't we be prioritizing the sacraments that Jesus came into the world to institute? And so that's where there's a lot of remorse and repentance on behalf of those priests in situations where they weren't as generous or courageous as they could have been. Likewise with some of the bishops who have made public statements afterward that they wish that they could have. We're recording this on the day in which there's going to be a new archbishop of Washington and God bless Cardinal Gregory, who's departing office today for having the candor to say that we made some mistakes. I went overboard. Cardinal Dolan in New York has said something similar in there, too, of many who have recognized that if another supposed pandemic was coming, that they'd respond with with a greater priority prioritization of the sacraments. Because if we're not saying at a time in which people are dying almost overnight that the sacraments are essential for our being ready to die, then why would people take them seriously? |
| Ashley | Mary took the question out of my mouth, which was How do you deal with anger? And my anger was about my young kids being, you know, out of school. And this was this was not the church's fault. In fact, this to me is one of the good things that came out of the pandemic for Catholics, which was a renewed understanding of how extraordinary Catholic education and Catholic educators are. And my anger was because our Catholic schools here in the Archdiocese of Washington were ready to open on September 1st with these unbelievable plans, like our school had a 50 page plan to, you know, which in retrospect, they didn't need almost any of that because everybody in school got COVID, but and everybody everybody else did. But they were just total heroes. There was no vaccine. There was total fear and uncertainty. And these teachers were ready to show up and do their jobs. And then our county at the last, at the 11th hour tried to shut them down. And I think it was because they knew that Catholic schools were going to make absolute fools of the public schools who were saying, we can't open. So my question is, you know, are we do you feel like the country has a renewed appreciation of Catholic education and are we are we seeing that in an enrollment numbers? Because I feel like I get mixed messages about that. |
| Msgr. Landry | Thank you, Ashley, for the question. In general, Catholic schools shown during that time because they clearly were putting the best interests of the students in its proper place, whereas there are public school teachers who care for the students very much. But a lot of the public school teachers unions and those making the decisions were not allowing the teachers who wanted to teach their kids in-person to be able to return. And so Catholic Catholic schools clearly showed that priority. I was the head of two different Catholic schools in Massachusetts when I was pastor and trying to persuade some parents to send their kids to Catholic schools. A lot of the times they'd say, well, the gym is better at the public school, in the cafeteria, the science labs, you name it. They everybody began to realize that there are far more important things than gyms or a cafeteria, that it's just really, is my kid going to be in my kid's future and my kids? What's best for my kid going to be the priority? Catholic school definitely showed that lots of Catholic schools have done very well coming out of COVID. Because of that, the children were transferred into Catholic schools and have stayed, and so it's helped still. At the same time, though, we've got the tectonic plates moving against Catholic schools that a lot of them have serious funding issues no matter what, that sometimes it's only the parishes with parish schools that are supporting them rather than the entire Catholic Church throughout a diocese throughout the country. We've got the larger issues still facing Catholic schools. And so not every Catholic school is anywhere close to being out of the water. Unfortunately, where I live in New York City, they've had to close a few more schools this year because of the financial considerations that are involved in running it, despite the respect everybody has for Catholic schools. There were some of the financial pressures that that can't be overcome just by high approval ratings. And so I'd encourage, if there's one listener to conversations with consequences today who might have resources to be able to say, how could I make a really big difference for the church moving ahead? Catholic schools really need your help if you're in that circumstance, ma'am or sir, please out of COVID, consolidate some of the good work that God's tried to bring out of that pandemic. |
| Mary | One Senior eight One of the silver linings, I think, was that couples, young couples preparing for marriage were able to have smaller weddings, smaller, more intimate weddings. I know you marry a lot of young couples, and probably during that time I thought that was a beautiful transformation that focused on the sacrament rather than the reception. |
| Msgr. Landry | Yeah, And I had about 30 couples waiting. About 20 wanted to be married right away because they were living chastely, no question. And they were prioritizing marriage over having more of their family there, over having that reception. And those words to me in the matrimonial right never meant more than during COVID. And I'd say to these couples at the beginning of the homily, you're in a few minutes about to say that you're going to be with each other for worse and for sicker, and you're showing it right now, getting married in the midst of the worst pandemic in a century. And so thank you for that witness, because a lot of these Catholic couples were super stars during COVID, prioritizing the most important things and giving us all a witness to emulate. |
| Mary | Well, Monsignor Landry, thank you so much for spending this time with us today. We are grateful for your work. To learn more about Monsignor Roger Landry, please visit Catholic preaching icon Monsignor Landry. Thank you again. |
| Msgr. Landry | Great to be with you, Mary and Ashley. And we thank God together that we're far from COVID now. Thanks be to God. |
| Ashley | Amen. Thank you. |
| Mary | Monsignor. Welcome back to Conversations with Consequences on EWTN Radio. I'm your host, Mary Fiorito. |
| Ashley | And I'm Ashley McGuire. |
| Leigh Snead | And I'm Lee Snead. |
| Mary | And we are happy to have all of you with us today. So, ladies, we're in the thick of Lent now and Daylight Savings Time as well, so as if we needed additional penance. So it's been, you know, very encouraging, as I think it always is on Ash Wednesday to see how many people, if not coming for the entire mass, come for ashes. And so many young adults going back to church. There was a New York Times story recently that that seems to indicate that the new Pew results show that attrition in churches has stopped and may actually be reversing in some cases. So a lot to talk about today. But let's start with Lent. So what are you ladies doing for lunch and how is it going for you? |
| Ashley | Well, I'll I'll start and I'll say that I. I gave up giving up food or drink for lunch many years ago because I just started to feel like it was like a societal cliche and annoyed me that people who don't actually observe Lent or Easter, that that's just what they do. That's not, you know, for the people who do it, that's great. It's just I decided instead of giving up something and part of it was I've been pregnant five times. So I feel like I've gone through so many periods where I've given up alcohol or haven't felt well. So it's like I'm looking for something a little different. So I started trying during my lens to add something in, and this year I'm adding in the daily rosary and it's been awesome. And I was partially inspired to do that because I've been doing Walking With Purpose, which is a national program that lots of Catholic churches have for women. And we meet once a week and we've been doing series after series on the mysteries of the rosary. And it's just had me thinking, why don't I pray the rosary more often? And so it's been awesome because I, you know, I am giving up my time instead of listening to music or, you know, maybe watching more TV or doing something that I would otherwise be not a great use of my time and using it to spend more time with our lady. That's beautiful. Yeah, that's really good. |
| Mary | Mrs. Sneed, what about you? |
| Leigh Snead | Well, I started off the week of Ash Wednesday. My husband was out of town for a whole week, so solo parenting felt like a pretty good, you know, crash course into. Right. You know, sacrifice the sacrifice. Exactly. So we had. So there was that. And then we usually just kind of do a general thing between the two of us. Like, we usually limit alcohol the weekends, you know, kids have can have sweets on Sunday. We do try to keep, especially during Lent that idea that Sundays are a little Easter. And so we try to, you know, make sure we have like Sunday lunch or something special that marks a different day of the week the rest of day. Another thing that we do with the kids is we use these lent cards that we got from the Catholic company, I think and it's Mike to twins are on the autism spectrum. And for them sometimes the idea of time is is too much or just too complicated to handle. And you know, I feel like my main mission in life is just to keep them, you know, loving Jesus and interested in the church. |
| Ashley | Right. |
| Leigh Snead | So these cards are great because it's like little mini assignments for every single day. So some days it's a prayer intention. Sometimes it's doing a kind of a secret chore without being asked. And so that for them keeps it up. Me remembering to do that is always a little bit of a problem. But I've sort of accepted at this point in my life that throughout these 40 days I will be rebooting and rebooting and rebooting. Right now I'm praying. The Saint Joseph adoption novella, which I usually do every year, but that's the it I'll be over soon and all the pictures. |
| Mary | How is that different from the regular Saint Joseph Novena? Is it for adoption as a specific intention? |
| Leigh Snead | Yeah, it's yeah, it's good to get a little text message every day to remind me. |
| Mary | I have a friend who is going through the adoption process. I should recommend that to her. |
| Ashley | And we're gonna take a quick break here on Conversations of Consequences. Stay tuned right here on EWTN Radio. |
| Mary | Welcome back to Conversations with Consequences on EWTN Radio. I'm your host. It's Mary Fiorito. |
| Ashley | And I'm Ashley. |
| Mary | McGuire. I was just listening to Bishop Barron's. I don't listen to him every day, but I do try to listen to his Sunday sermon before I go to Mass on Sunday just to get, you know, because he's just so brilliant and his Sunday families are just fantastic. So I try to listen to that before we go to Mass. And because it was the first Sunday of Lent, he started out by saying, I'm sure he said, I can tell you from myself personally the number of times he said, and I've gone through Lent 60 times now, you know, I get to the end of the set and I think that could have gone better. I could have done that better always. And and so to your point, actually, the giving up of a particular food or drink, that's you know, sometimes it seems almost like it's not serious enough. It's not enough. But then I know a lot of people who like their particular people who are trying to give up alcohol will say, well, I give myself three wild cards and then that I can choose an emergency. And then that, of course, we got. Yes, I like the three wild cards. And and then, you know, of course, and solemnity, that's also like a little Easter egg, as you pointed out. So Saint Joseph's Day and the Feast of the Annunciation are two little breaks during Lent most of the time. So this year will be the real test for us all because our wedding anniversary falls on Good Friday. yeah, that's the second time this has happened. We got married on Divine Mercy Saturday in 1998. So it's, you know, you know, that's a risk when you get married in the Easter season of where your anniversary is going to fall. So we'll have to postpone our anniversary celebrations till the following week, which, you know, after 28 years of marriage, will be 20 years this year. It won't be a huge thing, but I think it was our second or third anniversary when it fell on last time. Well, that's. |
| Ashley | Like last year. Remember Ash Wednesday last year fell on Valentine's Day. And it caused this big dilemma for parents. And you know, we worked it out. I remember my kids, they all go to Catholic schools. They did the celebration the day before and it was like you just it. |
| Mary | Was the stupidest thing I have ever seen. No. You know, you don't even think like just it's not a major. It's you know, he's not even a me. So I don't think he's on the calendar anymore, is he? Poor Saint Valentine. And it's not a major Saints Day. It's not just do. It's a cultural holiday. Do it the day before. What on earth was all this angst? And then we're read the next day, if you must. But, you know, for goodness sake, the church isn't going to move. There were actually some conversations I saw online about whether or not the church would dispense people for Ash Wednesday for Valentine's Day. |
| Ashley | Well, I think they didn't, because, you know. |
| Mary | This was one thing that we always hated when I worked for the archdiocese, particularly when I worked in the chancery when I was vice chancellor, because each of us had to take a day. What we called on call, somebody had to be on call every day, basically for stupid questions. And that's all you did all day long was tape. But, you know, this is before the Internet a lot, and some of it at least. And so you had to take people stupid questions all day long. And when Saint Patrick's Day fell on a Friday, we dreaded that more than anything ever in the course of a year's work, because the number of requests for dispensations and Cardinal George just wouldn't grant them. He just said this It is not appropriate. You can celebrate the day before, you can celebrate the day after. You can have fish and chips, which is a very Irish Irish. No one in Ireland eats corned beef and cabbage. I hate to break that to you, but and you would just think people would be aghast and they would be like, this is just a church coming down on us like a hammer. |
| Leigh Snead | man. |
| Mary | And I just remember one time Cardinal George, kind of like with his head in his hands going, If people only realized most people how strict the Lent disciplines used to be. |
| Leigh Snead | So, yeah. |
| Mary | You know, I have a priest friend who just sent me what was in what used to be in the bulletins, you know, diocesan wide the week before Ash Wednesday, you know, you know, just kind of the similar things that you see. What are the Lenten obligations to remind people. And now it's like three, right? Total fasting, abstinence and Good Friday and Ash Wednesday fasting for those between 18 and 59. You know, but other than that, all of your other Lenten disciplines are completely self-imposed. But you should see I mean, it was the Ash Wednesday, Good Friday, fast for the whole 40 days of Lent. |
| Ashley | Wow. Well, in the eastern right, I know that friends of mine are Easter, right? They eat vegan all lent. |
| Leigh Snead | Yes. Up there. |
| Mary | And they give up dairy and meat. Yeah. |
| Ashley | And meat for the whole time and. |
| Mary | Yeah. Yeah. That's always been part of their discipline. I think that's, you know, that's very exemplary. And I don't know if you saw Cardinal Dolan's post, I guess from his serious radio, he does both like an Instagram post and I'm not sure what the whole social media component of it is, but he talked about being in a cab with a muslim during Ramadan. This cab driver was a muslim man and it was very apparently it was an unusually, very hot day in New York. And he had some cold water with him and he offered the cab driver a bottle of his cold water. And the cab driver said I would love a bottle of that water, but I can't have it. He said, I can't have anything till sundown. He said, But thank you for offering it to me. And Cardinal Dolan said he was so struck by that how serious this man was about his Ramadan obligations. And perhaps, you know, we as Catholics, I think it would be good for everyone and maybe not to go back to a strict as it was, but to something a little like maybe, you know, no meat twice a week, for example, or Wednesday and Friday or. |
| Leigh Snead | Yeah, we've done that. |
| Mary | Yeah. One day a week that you would do the Ash Wednesday fasting not every day, but you would do it. Say everyone stay fly and Good Friday you do the no eating between meals. I do think that people would and people seem to like it you know to me yeah they like people who practice. It's always so funny to me. They don't go to math on Sundays, but they're like abstemious and very particular about not eating meat on a Friday or getting a dispensation Like they don't they don't get to go to mass on Sundays. Why do they need it? Why do they care whether or not they have a dispensation? That's a much more serious thing. |
| Leigh Snead | How do they know the right word? |
| Ashley | Yeah. |
| Mary | And you know, my friend Bishop Approcci, who's the bishop of Springfield in Illinois, there's a bishop of Springfield in Massachusetts. So you always have to distinguish. But he said, you know, that it's what what the canons say about it. What Canon Law says about is you must substantially observe the disciplines of Lent, not completely substantially. So a one day of eating meat on a Friday is not a sin necessarily. If you're making a mental reservation that you will abstain the next day or you're going to give up alcohol instead of you know, I remember one time we suggested that like, well, you can have the corned beef, but just don't don't drink alcohol. Everybody was like, you know, gosh, we don't want it. You know, it was it's so funny, you know, just substitute another penance, but it has to be a significant penance. So that's that's our lent. I hope your lines are going as well as ours are, and that it will be a time of drawing closer to Christ. For everyone here who's listening, please visit Catholic Association dot org to follow everything that we're doing in radio, on television and in print and online and in our local communities. And it was great to be with you and we'll see you next time. |
| Ashley | Thanks, Mary. |
| Betsy | Welcome back to Conversations with Consequences. I'm your host is Betsy Fentress, and I'm happy to have alongside me someone who hasn't been on the show for a while, knee deep in writing her book, all on Infertility. My two year college, Lee Snead, is with me today, and she has written extensively not only on fertility but also adoption. And as an adoptive mother, she knows these issues firsthand on a very personal level. Glad to have you come up for some air today, Lee. |
| Leigh Snead | No, I'm so happy to be here. Yes, I'm getting bored of myself in the writing of the book, so I'm glad to see another face. |
| Betsy | Well, Lee, I really saw out of you you've shared so much of your own journey and experience with infertility. The heartache, the loss, the suffering, but also the joys you've experienced in finding such blessings in adoption. And right now, as you know, the new White House administration has made some pretty promising statements regarding IVF. And what was your response as a woman who has experienced these heartaches of infertility to that announcement? |
| Leigh Snead | Well, you know, at first, obviously, there was some disappointment. You know, we've got a Catholic VP, and I was surprised that this was one of the first things out of the gate, especially when in the first Trump term, so many pro-life gains were made, although even I mean, a lot of people who are opposed to abortion do support IVF and access to IVF. And so the pro-life world is a little bit divided. There, too. But for me, I think that it making it easier to access and government pushing to make it more affordable sort of makes it more of a backup plan or, you know, I've got all the time in the world because this is going to be available to me. I don't have to worry about not being able to afford it. And actually, I just discovered this morning that the CDC actually has an online calculator for your success rates. Really? Yes. Age, weight, height, infertility, diagnosis, whether or not you choose to use like donor eggs or not, and then it calculates your percentage. So like today, if I were to try IVF, 1% chance of success. I'm 49 years old, so. Right. But then I sort of backed it up to when we were seeking the answers to why we weren't getting pregnant. And we had gone to a secular fertility doctor thinking, well, we know what to do. Will we walk in there with our, you know, little Catholic and fertility playbook and we'll be just fine? and this man cannot wait to enroll me is the word he used in his IVF program. And I looked and it's because my chances back then in my twenties were like 60% success rate in the first cycle. Then like I combined like 78% chance with two retrieves retrieval cycles. So I'm like, okay, But then it's like I moved it forward to my late thirties this and then you see where it drops off at 49, if you're going to use your own gametes, it's 1%. and, but if I did three retrieval cycles, three egg retrievals, I could get it up to 3% chance of success. Wow. Anyway, so I just think it putting this in like promoting it as a social good just really emphasizes that false promise of IVF equals baby. |
| Betsy | So let's go back to that time. So many couples assume that that when they get married, they'll be able to have children through natural means when that doesn't happen, they begin to explore all these different options. So it sounds like as a Catholic, you did understand why the church did not consider this a viable option. But how did you come to know that? Because I truly feel that one of our missions here at TCA is to promote the teachings of the church in love and compassion. And how did you come to know that so deeply? Because I think there are people who sort of know it, but they feel that that they're going for a greater good. And so it's. |
| Leigh Snead | Okay, right? Of course. And we know so many people in our lives and probably can assume that there are people we don't know, you know, whose lives have been affected in one way or another by IVF. So actually, my husband, they were in a unique position to understand the church's teaching. I didn't really think much about make as I knew the term test. Two babies, you know, because I it was a big deal when that first happened. But, you know, we got married right out of college and that Catholic teaching just didn't seem to play much of a role in our lives until I was trying to decide next steps for myself and decided well, was mostly after reading this book by Dr. Leon Kass called Toward a More Natural Science and only at a really good age. And that inspired me to want to study philosophy with a concentration in medical and bioethics at the same time. Carter, your husband was killed by husband Carter. Carter and he started working for Leon Caste, the man who inspired me to go to graduate school as his general counsel at President President's Council for Bioethics. So from that book, Toward a More Natural Science, I had a secular understanding of the, like, moral recklessness of idea. |
| Betsy | From a totally secular perspective. Is are there any kind of talking points about that? |
| Leigh Snead | Leah I think it's like invite. I remember things like inviting a third person into the bedroom, you know, taking out that sort of mysterious stranger element of reproduction or, you know, really even, I mean, adoption clearly really a stranger. But, you know, because even, you know, you give birth and you just you meet this little new, totally unique human being. Right. Right. You don't know. And this especially when you add in things like PGD, sorry, pre-implantation genetic diagnosis when you're weeding out embryos, You know, again, you're making a child a commodity instead of a gift. Yes. So then when I went to school at Catholic University and the School of Philosophy in a medical ethics class, we had what my professor jokingly called Catholic day because, you know, we read lots of different authors and writers and but we had one day where we learned what was permissible, you know, and impermissible in terms of especially with, you know, procreation, end of life things. What the church teaches on things. And so I was able to combine my faith and whatever I already knew sort of the secular, you know, problems with IVF together and understand that, of course, that the teachings, you know, that don't allow for IVF are aligned perfectly well with our total understanding of contraception and human sexuality and the marital relationship and the procreate and the inactive. And there we had. And then so my husband was there. He at the council, he was the chief author of the government report called Reproduction and Responsibility. And so, again, this was, you know, a government thing. And they had lots of different people, lots of different advocates from different groups, fertility groups and lots of guest speakers. And I mean, the President's Council on Bioethics was just chock full of like the best people Mary Ann Glendon, Robbie George, Bill and all from Stanford. I mean. he's right. Yeah, right. Yep. So all these amazing people. And so Carter was reading. So basically the year that we were really well giving it our all, you know, it's sort of just like playing Russian roulette, you know, and like not. |
| Betsy | Being open to life. |
| Leigh Snead | Yes, yes, yes. Aggressively. At this point that year, Carter was writing this report, but basically with every chapter, he learned something new that could go wrong. You know, it was like no. |
| Ashley | Stress, you know. |
| Leigh Snead | Although we never found an answer to our infertility. |
| Betsy | Or really. |
| Leigh Snead | No, unexplained. So, yeah, I mean, I think that's and that's where our background lies. It's it's unusual that both of us would have, you know, had these extra enriching opportunities and then end up in infertile couple together. Providentially, probably. And, yeah, a lot. |
| Betsy | Of it coming from a secular background. I think that's what's fascinating. I mean, Leon Kass, while he's he's Jewish, not Catholic, but he's looking at these through a moral lens. Yeah, I'm from a different faith tradition and coming to the same conclusions. |
| Leigh Snead | Right. He's and he's a physician too. I mean, he's right. Yes, he's a scientist. Yeah. Yeah. So all these things. Yeah, it's a it's a really compelling thing. And there's not probably enough voices out there like that. |
| Betsy | Do you think it's hard to have those conversations? LI With women who are in the same experience that you spent years in, and how do you gently guide to the path that you have taken and away from this technological solution that has produced a lot of children that, you know, people that we might know and love? I find it hard to start that conversation. I mean, I feel like I know what the you what the teachings are, but to really bring compassion to the forefront And how do you move how do you move that conversation in a in the direction that you ended up in? |
| Leigh Snead | Yeah, I think that's really hard. The compassion bit, I think oftentimes can hold us back sometimes from covering the truth I mean, I think it's a real gift for people who can do both at the same time, be very clear about what the truth is and for the person on the receiving end to be open to the idea that this person is just trying to love them by telling them the truth and to try to help them get to heaven. So it's tough. And usually if you're considering IVF, that means you've already been waiting and struggling for a very long time. And if you know you're just suggests something like an aura ring or even just, you know, the Creighton model and that pro technology that takes time because it is it is wants to work in concert with your natural functions, with your natural biological functions and to try to treat the underlying conditions which could which could be so subtle. And there's a lot of kind of let's just see if this helps right approaches, especially with unexplained infertility. So I think that the person is usually already very broken and really sad and just and kind of desperate and someone saying, I can do this for you. You don't have to miss out. Right. And that's a real temptation. I felt it myself. |
| Betsy | I wanted to ask you about that. You know, did you ever think like, well, you. |
| Leigh Snead | Know, you know, in weaker moments, you know, you sort of think about it. You think, we'll just implant two embryos, you know? Right. Why make will make to implant two and then we'll never have to think about this again, you know, because it's so private anyway. And I mean, obviously anything to deal with reproduction and, you know, marital stuff is private. And I think a lot of people are ashamed that they can't get pregnant. They feel, you know. |
| Betsy | So we need to eliminate that shame and also have people understand that that even if you just create these two embryos, you know, it's tell us why that's a problem. Even if you if there ends up being no embryos destroyed. I mean, how many people do you think really understand that they're being destroyed? |
| Leigh Snead | I don't think so. I don't think so. And I doubt that very many people go into it thinking we'll make extra and we won't destroy them. We'll just donate them. Right. You know, I mean, I think maybe there are some people who think that way, but it's probably only after they do give birth to children and then realize they've got a bunch of more children in the freezer. They don't want more children, you know, but then they somehow get this, wow, that was my baby all along. And that's when the donation happens. I mean, this is all speculative, this sort of trying to get into that headspace and understand what they're feeling. |
| Betsy | So it's a destruction of. |
| Leigh Snead | Life to create. |
| Betsy | Life. |
| Leigh Snead | And then it's the separation of the procreative and the unities. |
| Betsy | And don't you think that's really the heart of it? Because you can tell people your child might have. I mean, I've read that there's an increased chance that your child might have a birth defect, which then leads people to start doing genetic testing on the embryos. Right. Can you tell us about that a little bit? |
| Leigh Snead | Yeah. I think it used to be an optional thing, but I think now that it's so heavily preferred to get the optimal embryos that it's kind of the rigueur to do the genetic testing beforehand and screening for certain things. And I think, you know, you have to choose which traits you want to screen for. And I think it can be it can be pretty expensive. But I think there are some basic things that get screened for immediately. Again, I haven't been in the game for a while in terms of, you know, current practices. But the yeah, I think that the is a real problem, I think but I think that what it does to the marriage and what you understood consummating a marriage is being completely apart layer the car and sold for parts that's it's like you know the procreative is this I mean even doctors. |
| Ashley | Fertility doctors. |
| Leigh Snead | Use language like we're going to get you pregnant. It's just a punch in the face of marriage, you know, and that it will in a Catholic sense anyway. I think other people probably don't feel about it that way, which is the problem, I suppose. |
| Betsy | I'm Glad you brought that up, because I read a beautiful piece that you wrote and you and you said this the day you and your husband say, I do. You are a family, a complete family. Your family may grow with children and what a blessing they are. But sometimes children don't come to love. You share within your marriage the life you live together every day, trying to help them get to heaven and the gifts your family brings to the world through your friends, your prayers and hospitality. Those are good and holy fruits. Now is that something that you understood kind of in the midst of this, or is that more of a little bit of hindsight of looking back and trying to help other people say you are complete from the you get married? I loved reading that. |
| Leigh Snead | Yeah. It is something that I have just anyway put into words, I think in the last ten years. I mean, maybe I had a strange, vague understanding of it, but I think it wasn't really until maybe 15 years ago that I really started to understand the sort of thread of work among a lot of women my age, that it talks about the feminine genius, you know, in the spirit of GP2 and I also a lot of fruitful femininity talk. I feel like a lot of the organizations. Yes, involved with I talk I've been on podcasts talking about fruitful femininity. |
| Betsy | Is that when you kind of tell for those of us who are super familiar with that phrase, what does that manifest. |
| Leigh Snead | The special gifts that women bring? And I think if you by embracing what you've been given and that includes maybe a cross that you need to pick up and carry that representation like that witness, right. To like the love of our Lord, I think is is the seed that, you know, sprouts all this fruit. Right. You know, in our communities and our families. And I think that there's something that, you know, women who are single feel I mean, obviously there's just something very special about women. And it's hard when you hear fruit, you think babies and it's hard. |
| Betsy | Right. You know. |
| Leigh Snead | Fruitful. You feel, you know, the word barren, right? I mean, that's what it means. Like, you know, no fruit, right? You see, babies are not the only fruit. And I think it's important when you're in a season or a lifetime of in fertility to understand what gifts you bring. And I think things like staying married because a lot of people divorce when dealing with infertility issues. |
| Betsy | You have four children now. |
| Leigh Snead | I do, too. I know my friend, who's also an adoptive mom and never had any biological children. She also has four. And we always, like, you know, eight kids between us. Not too bad for a couple of infertile girls. Yeah, it's pretty amazing. |
| Betsy | And you some of your children came very quickly, right? |
| Leigh Snead | Yes. Can you. |
| Betsy | Tell us? |
| Leigh Snead | Right? Yeah, sure. Our first was about six weeks after we first met with the agency, and we had even decided against a message about between domestic and international, whatever. And but we were again, we were young and we were still on our toes, and we weren't done pursuing any sort of help narrow technology, but we were done with the secular doctor. We ended up just walking out of the office one day because he was just so aggressive and mean, you know, that really angry that we wouldn't do IVF. So they said, well, you know, 20 years you might go for a we decide upon domestic infant adoption. And we said okay. And but we were still living our little D.C. Catholic yuppie lives. I don't know if that's the real thing, but, you know, it's kind of, you know, bebop around and doing our stuff. And then we had a couple of trips planned, and then all of a sudden we got back from Paris, actually, and we got a call from the agency saying, like, we were in the running. And then all of a sudden it was like your congratulations, your son was born. And then, yeah, so about six weeks there. And then our twins, we had done a year of neighbor and never pregnant decided just that we wanted to adopt again, that we really felt like that was our calling to be adoptive parents and not that we didn't hope for a natural conception, but we weren't going to like, do the needles and everything anymore. But yeah, so we got a call from the agency saying, we'd like your your gun, check your FBI, check your criminal history, all the stuff you have to do. So much stuff you have to do, you're good to go. We'll let you know. You know, if any birth mothers have reviewed your profile. Although we have someone expecting twins at the end of the month. Do you think you we would be open to that? And we're like, sure, that sounds great. We think it's great. Someone already might be interested in us. Says is great. Maybe we'll get a placement this year and the next day. She wanted to speak to us and then she wanted to have lunch. And then when we got to her to have the have lunch with her, they were admitting her to the hospital. And the next thing I knew, she was asking me to come into the delivery room with her. And I just kept saying yes. And I think that's the most important part. Your feet. Find your feet. Just keep saying yes. Do what God has in store for you. |
| Betsy | I have one other final question before we close. What are some do's and don'ts when talking with women on this issue? What are you saying are things that help and things that hurt? |
| Leigh Snead | I think kind of the endless suggestions can be especially, you know, if it's someone who has normal fertility like, you know, just got married and had babies saying like, have you tried this? Have you tried this? Have you tried this or have you taken this test? You know, I think that can be a lot because really they probably have, you know, yeah, they've already done it. I think, you know, just every like whenever there's anything going wrong with someone, if someone dies or something, it's like, well, is there anything I can do to help? How are you doing? You know, keep it simple, keep it light. Just as this is a person, Just the person, not the infertility, I guess, is it? It's probably a good rule of thumb, but I think any sort of just like loving, non invasive gesture is nice because it really it is isolating. Right. And I think just not being left out of things, but understand adding that, you know, maybe your friend doesn't want to go to the baby shower, you know, and that's okay. Yeah. But I think including them letting them be with your kids because they probably, you know, that that helps to, you know, don't go on and on about obviously you don't have to censor yourself, but to not go on and on. And I've been in situations where every only the only thing women talked about were their birth stories, you know, and like, now I don't care. But, you know, when you're like in the middle of it, you're just like, but and then also, of course, you're like, aren't we more interesting than this? But that's another issue altogether. |
| Betsy | Well, I think that infertility adoption are really important conversations with consequences. And you've given us a lot to think about today. We are all rooting for you to get that book finished. And when? When will it be published? Leave all things go according to Hoyle. |
| Leigh Snead | You know, I think into early 20, 26. Great. But yeah, I'm just looking forward to that. Crossing that finish line on the manuscript and turning that into Sophia Institute Press. That's where it's going to be published. |
| Betsy | Great. Lee, Thanks for coming and we hope to have you back on the show regularly soon. |
| Leigh Snead | I can't wait. Thanks, Betsy. |
| Ashley | And we'd like to thank all of our guests and listeners for joining us today. Make sure to follow us on social media. And as always, you go with our prayers. |