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Episode Description
Former U.S. Congressman Dan Lipinski joins us to offer candid reflections on the surprising election of fellow Chicagoan Pope Leo XIV. A lifelong Catholic and pro-life advocate, Lipinski discusses the significance of this historic moment for American Catholics and opens up about his own political journey as a “pro-life leper” in the Democratic Party. He charts the future of the pro-life movement and shares how faith continues to shape his public witness.
We also hear from Msgr. Roger Landry, who just returned from Rome after a personal encounter with the newly elected Holy Father. Msgr. Landry recounts his private audience with Pope Leo XIV, where they spoke about the indispensable mission of the Pontifical Mission Societies and the urgent need to spread the Gospel to the peripheries.
In honor of National Foster Care Month, we spotlight a powerful testimony of life and hope with Sarah Zagorski of Louisiana Right to Life. Rescued from the tragedy of abortion and raised in the foster care system, Sarah’s story is one of perseverance, faith, and advocacy as she now fights for the unborn and vulnerable children across the country.
Bios
Dan Lipinski is a former eight-term U.S. Congressman from Illinois and one of the most prominent pro-life Democrats to serve in the House of Representatives. Holding a Ph.D. in political science from Duke University and degrees from Northwestern and Stanford, he has taught at the University of Notre Dame, University of Tennessee, and currently serves as a political science fellow at Princeton University. During his time in Congress, Lipinski was known for his principled independence, strong Catholic convictions, and bipartisan work on transportation, manufacturing policy, and religious liberty. A steadfast defender of the unborn, he often faced political opposition from within his own party, yet remained a vocal advocate for conscience protections and faith-based public service. Since leaving Congress, Lipinski has written and spoken widely about the challenges facing faithful Catholic politicians and continues to encourage civic engagement rooted in Christian principles. He lives with his wife in the Chicago area.
Monsignor Roger Landry is a priest of the Diocese of Fall River, Massachusetts. He writes for numerous publications, speaks on radio and TV, and is the author of the book, Plan of Life: Habits to Help You Grow Closer to God. A graduate of Harvard and the Pontifical North American College in Rome, he served as Attaché to the Holy See’s Permanent Observer Mission to the United Nations in New York. Father Landry traversed the full 1500-mile Eucharist Pilgrimage in 2024 and joined the historic Eucharistic Congress in Indianapolis, an event which coincided with his 25th year in the priesthood. In 2024, he was appointed the new National Director of the Pontifical Mission Societies in the USA by Pope Francis.
Sarah Zagorski is a pro-life advocate, public speaker, and the Communications Director for Louisiana Right to Life, where she focuses on outreach, storytelling, and promoting a culture of life. Born prematurely and saved from a late-term abortion, Sarah was raised in the foster care system and later adopted at the age of nine—a personal journey that fuels her passionate defense of both unborn children and vulnerable youth. She holds a degree in Communication Studies from the University of Louisiana at Lafayette and has spoken nationally about the intersection of abortion, foster care, and adoption. Her work has been featured on EWTN, National Right to Life News, and multiple faith-based platforms. Sarah has served as Editor of The Luminary, Louisiana Right to Life’s flagship publication, and is a contributor to LifeNews and Live Action News. A devout Christian and survivor of extreme poverty and abuse, she shares her powerful story to witness the dignity and value of every human life. She resides in New Orleans with her husband and son.
Mary FioRito is an attorney, public speaker, radio show and podcast host, and an EPPC Cardinal Francis George Fellow specializing in human life issues, abortion law and ethics of life. She has a degree in English Literature from Loyola University Chicago and a Juris Doctor from Loyola School of Law. She served as Director of Pro-life Activities for the Archdiocese of Chicago and was named the first female Vice Chancellor for the diocese in 2000. Newsweek Magazine named her one of their “Women of the New Century,” and she received the “Woman of the Year Award” from St. Joseph College Seminary. Her writings have been published in the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, the Chicago Tribune, Newsweek, National Review, and many religious publications. She is a contributing author to two books and has appeared on major Chicago area news outlets as well as NPR, EWTN, and local and national religious media. She lives in Chicago with her husband and three daughters.
Betsy Fentress is a professional writer and editor, and co-author of three specialty cookbooks. Betsy earned her Bachelor’s Degree from the University of Missouri School of Journalism and studied in the graduate English program at Louisiana State University. She is a council member of the Archdiocese of St. Louis Annual Catholic Appeal, and has served as a mentor for the Hatchery Program at the Skandalaris Center for Entrepreneurial Studies at Washington University. Betsy also tutors after-school programs in University City, Missouri, where she resides with her husband Sam. They share six grown children. She and her husband enjoy dabbling in art collecting.
The following transcript is machine generated.
Episode 319 Transcript
| Mary | Welcome back to Conversations with Consequences here on EWTN Radio. I'm your host, Mary Fiorito. |
| Betsy | And I'm Betsy Fentress. |
| Mary | And we are grateful today to have with us a dear friend. Many know him as the last standing pro-life Democrat in Congress. But we're fortunate to call him a friend, and that is former Congressman Dan Lipinski. Dan, welcome to the show. |
| Dan Lipinski | Good to be with you. |
| Mary | Well, you for those around the country who may be on the other coasts and are not familiar with politics in the Midwest, Dan Lipinski is an American politician and political scientist who served for eight terms as the U.S. representative for the third Congressional District in Illinois. So he was a member of Congress from 2005 to 2021. Currently, the former congressman is the pope, Leo the 13th fellow and social thought at the University of Dallas, which is a tremendous school. And he is also currently a columnist for The Pillar. And he is also from Chicago's South Side, where the new pope also happens to be from which which is something I repeat now. Every time I'm talking to somebody from Chicago, I remind them that the new pope is from Chicago. So, Congressman Lipinski, we have been reading all your great pieces at The Pillar. I loved the one that you did called Learning to Love Pope Leo, because I'm embarrassed to admit I think I had I think I sent my husband the exact same text that you sent your lovely wife. Can you talk to us just a little bit about that piece and what motivated you to write it? |
| Dan Lipinski | Well, I started as a columnist for The Pillar, the new section of the Pillar started about two months ago, and I'm writing every other week. And I thought in nothing better to talk about than the the new pope. Pope Leo and I had conversation with friends of mine who also were initially very they say, we're not excited at the selection of Pope Leo just because of what we had heard about who is promoting him. And you know, that that did raise some concerns. But I in the in the week after, right after he was chosen, things I started to learn about about Pope Leo made me very, very optimistic. I'm always hopeful. What made me optimistic about what type of pope he's going to be. We need a pope who's going to bring us back to very, you know, straight forward. You know, this is the this is what the church teaches. We don't need any more confusion, any more mess. But obviously, a man who who is a very warm heart. I see him as in Chicago, and very straightforward matter of fact, get things done. And his his work, obviously, in Peru as a missionary, as a leader of the Augustinians, his time at the Vatican, I just think he may be exactly the pope we need right now. |
| Mary | An authentic White Sox fan as well. I love that clip, though. |
| Dan Lipinski | You know. |
| Mary | Circulating. |
| Dan Lipinski | That the pope is not infallible on all things. So I'm uncomfortable. |
| Mary | Are you? |
| Dan Lipinski | I did. |
| Mary | Not know that about you. All these years. And I'm just finding this out. Okay. You think you know someone, Betsy? And then all of a sudden he drops something like this. |
| Dan Lipinski | Should be over now. |
| Mary | No. Betsy has a question. |
| Betsy | I do have a question. And you wrote a letter to Pope Francis. Can you tell us about that and about the response? |
| Dan Lipinski | Well, this is early in the papacy of Pope Francis, and he had given an interview in which he suggested that there's been too much focus on issues of of abortion, other social issues by the church. And it was used against me. There is a very powerful pro-abortion group in Illinois that said, we bet Lipinski doesn't even listen to the pope who told Catholics to to back off of of issues like abortion. And I just wrote a letter and I did it very quietly. I never spoke about it publicly until I wrote this piece in. First things just to let the pope know how his words were being used in a very vile manner, certainly not the way that he intended them to be used, certainly something that would make him unhappy, presumably. And if I wrote the letter, I received a response back from the substitute, who at that time was Cardinal Matthew. And essentially it was saying he laid out that Pope Francis has been very clear about the importance of the vote, the life issue. And rest assured that, you know, he is very supportive of your work on this issue. But, you know, unfortunately, it was a two step that we saw too often. Pope Francis would make a statement that would be unclear. Then the others would have to come back and say, no, this is the what the pope this is what the pope means. And look, Pope Francis said he hugging Leo, which he was happy to to to make to make a mess, which is an academic. I think that's a great way to teach, to learn. But when it comes to the teaching of the church, that's not good. We have an we have enough messes in this world right now. I mean, I'm very hopeful. I think that this is something Pope Leo understands. Again, he he's something else I love about him. He was a math major. My wife was a math major. She's an actuary. Thinks like an engineer. I'm a mechanical engineer. And it's like, well, we need to be straightforward about about these things. |
| Betsy | There's only one right answer in math, right? |
| Dan Lipinski | That's right. What I love about it. |
| Mary | Well, Congressman Lipinski, for those who don't know your story, can you just briefly describe to our listeners what happened to you and why you're not serving in Congress now? |
| Dan Lipinski | Well, as you mentioned, beginning I serve for a term of 16 years. I was always I always stood out as a pro-life Democrat. I said from the beginning that I will give up being a member of Congress before I'd ever give up being pro-life. Fortunately, I saw some of my colleagues who do not in that feel the same and gave up being pro-life as the pressure became greater on Democrats to, you know, flip their position and become pro-choice. I was able to survive. Didn't have too many problems until 2018. And all of a sudden, the pro-choice, pro-abortion groups, other groups that came after me, spent three or $4 million to try to get rid of me and beat me in the Democratic primary and narrowly won in 2018, 2020. It got even worse. I mean, five presidential candidates endorsed my my opponent. And because I became a leper in the party, essentially a political leper, I you were no longer allowed to be pro-life if you were a Democrat. And I was not going to give up being pro-life. And I lost in the 2020 primary as I spent more than 2 to 1 in in that election and barely lost it. |
| Betsy | And it was just over that one issue. |
| Dan Lipinski | Well, I mean, that was the biggest issue. That's where the money came from. That was a big part of it, because those groups have so much money and so much power in the Democratic Party. I mean, there were there were other issues. I just I'm not a I'm an independent thinker. And so I'm not just going to listen to that to the Democratic Party and I listen to my constituents also. |
| And so they weren't on the line with everything the Democratic Party wanted. So that was the the problem they face. It's just not accepted anymore. So to be like that in politics today. | |
| Mary | Well, you you know, in addition, I think you showed a lot of personal character and heroism during that time. And, you know, you were so well-liked for the most part among your constituents, you know, which tend to be largely the south side of Chicago, pretty heavily Catholic in some areas. I think it was kind of a confluence of, you know, different things that happened at the same time, like Wokeness, I think was kind of at its peak. Then I remember that your opponent was had a transgender child of some sort, that she was using that to, you know, help boost her candidacy. And of course, all, as you mentioned, all the abortion money just pouring into the into the district. But then also COVID. You know, the COVID shutdowns happened right around the same time. So I think now we're seeing the pendulum swing back the other way. And, you know, President Trump really does have a mandate, I mean, including winning some wards in Chicago that have never been won by a Republican. What have you witnessed just in terms of the the changes in the political discourse over the last five years, since since your loss? |
| Dan Lipinski | Well, certainly that was Pete Wolk back in those days. The Democratic Party is really struggling right now because after Donald Trump was elected for the second time, Republicans have the House and the Senate and the party is struggling to figure out who its what it's going to be going forward. And a lot of these, you know, radical positions, especially on social issues, have alienated a lot of Americans and especially alienated the working class, working class people. So the party is really trying to know, I don't know where the party is going to go at this point. I, I call myself an independent Democrat right now. And I'm trying to, you know, bring the party back to its roots of being a working class party. But that is not what it is right now. That's not what it became. And it is bad for our entire political system. |
| Betsy | What concerns you most about the current political climate, given your own time and wealth of experience? |
| Dan Lipinski | Well, the the partizan divide, the divide in general in our country is is really dangerous. And we have we live in a in a republic where we are very diverse and we need compromise. Partizanship has become, as I'm writing a book about this, about my experiences and what has happened with the divide in the country and how we can possibly overcome that. What Partizanship has become for many people, a fundamentalist pseudo religious identity that is, as you know, people are looking at this as their religion. They feel like there's a dogma that they need to follow certain leaders. They need to follow, and what it does not allow for it, what's necessary in a democracy, especially the democracy of our Constitution, which is compromise, we need to figure out how we're going to live together in this country is a very diverse, very diverse people. The framers of the Constitution set up our government in a way to make sure that that to try to make sure that we reached these compromises. Federalism gave power to the power to the states instead of all of it to the federal government. The federal government was set up with three branches, separate powers, checks and balances, again, to force compromise, to force conciliation. And we don't see that happening anymore. If both sides say if either my way or we're just not going to we're not going to get anything done here, and there's a lot of issues with country that need to be addressed. I'm really concerned that our republic cannot survive with parties like this. |
| Mary | Well, but Dan, isn't this in some sense kind of same old, same old I mean, Republicans and Democrats have always disagreed. What's what's different about it this time? Well. |
| Dan Lipinski | When it becomes an identity, when it becomes us against them, I you see, what what happens is the hatred. I mean, so much of it is motivated by hatred for the other side rather than love for love for your own party. And so that is a different type of divide. When I first got to Congress, I was first elected in 2004. George Bush was was president. Republicans had control of the House and the Senate, but it changed after 2006 elections. The Democrats and Republicans, Democrats controlled the House and the Senate, worked with George Bush. We got things done and things things changed since that time. And there's a big change in the Republican Party after the 2008 election. As I said, it turned to this fundamentalist pseudo religious identity. Being a Republican. The same thing happened on the Democratic side when President Trump was elected for the first time in 2016. And so I'm going to I'm going to talk about exactly how these changes occur. It's not as simple as that, but that generally the outlines of it. But we're just in a situation now where, you know, the two sides still don't talk to each other much less much don't have debate in in trying to figure out some of these these problems that that our country faces. |
| Betsy | You gave a speech recently, Memorial Day weekend. And by the way, congratulations on you and your wife's medals and a ten K and a5k back to back. That's impressive. Were you you said, quote, It's not guaranteed. What we have here in the United States are Democratic Republic is not guaranteed. And more people need to understand that. That's a pretty dramatic statement. How do you see going forward and do you think you're kind of in a unique position as an independent Democrat where you can maybe criticize or give constructive criticism to both sides? |
| Dan Lipinski | Well, first of all, before anything here, here's my medal. I need to grab that. |
| Mary | no. |
| Dan Lipinski | I never know what to do with these after I get them. |
| Betsy | My husband has a few. |
| Dan Lipinski | Yeah, put them in a box, but let me show them right here. Very nice. My my wife, though, beat me. Those are two bronze. She got a bronze and a silver, so. But I talked about how we can't take for granted our. Our republic. It's human nature to take things for granted. I mean, this is Catholic Christians. We take. We take a lot for granted. We take the love of God is grace. We take for granted what what he's done for us. What Jesus did for us. If we could take it. We don't realize that. If we can take that for granted, it's much it's certainly easy to take for granted that we live in what I believe is the greatest country ever in the world. We have been bequeathed so much. But if we don't take care of that, if we don't truly understand that a democratic republic is something that is precious, I'm afraid that we could we could lose this if we're if we just become completely two sides that fight each other will not figure out how to live together. You know, that's a recipe for disaster. We need to remember what I think the solution is, is we need a renewal of civic patriotism. That's a devotion to the principles of the Declaration of Independence and to the democracy of the Constitution. We have to remember and appreciate what those have given us. And it is has enabled us almost 250 years now to to live in this in this great land. And I think that Catholics have a special role in that. Catholics certainly believe in the principles of the Declaration of Independence. You go in, you look at the principles enunciated in their written in there. Now, Americans will disagree over what some of those mean, what the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. What do those mean? I think we need to really, as Catholics, explain what those meant then in what they mean now, which it's it really is. If you go back, there's a lot that that Catholic social teaching supports in those principles a declaration the democracy of the Constitution. And I grew up in the seventies and eighties. Ronald Reagan, Pope John Paul. Seconds are great great saints who did so much. You know, I learned that the Catholic Church supports the best of democracy and certainly you look over the last since Vatican to the Catholic Church is supportive. So I think Catholics should be the ones to lead the way. Here are bring us back together as as Americans and save as republic. |
| Mary | Well, you'll get no argument from us on that one. And we're grateful that you took the time to be with us today. And listeners, if you'd like to learn more about former Congressman Dan Lipinski, you can visit Dan Lipinski dot com or you can catch his writing at first things and at the pillar dot com and he is also on Twitter and what's your Twitter handle again? |
| Dan Lipinski | Dan Lipinski to. |
| Mary | Dan Lipinski, the number two on Twitter. And Congressman Lipinski, we're so grateful to you for being with us today and make sure to visit the Catholic Association dot org to learn more about us and all that we do in our local communities and nationwide. Thank you for joining us today. |
| Dan Lipinski | Thank you for having me. |
| Betsy | Welcome to Conversations with Consequences, where we once again are joined by our resident chaplain, Monsignor Roger Landry, who is also the national director of the Pontifical Mission Societies. You are still in Rome, Monsignor Landry. And since the last time we spoke, you have met with Pope Leo the 14th. |
| MSGR Landry | So after all of Pope Leo election and his first mass is massive inauguration. I was here in Rome for meetings of all the national directors for the missions across the globe, which was an exhilarating week. But we had the chance to be one of the first groups received by Pope Francis. Sorry, but received by Pope Leo four to encourage us in our work as leading the missions in our respective countries, and then likewise to encourage us to help all Catholics likewise grasp that they are missionaries by their baptism. And so he addressed us in English. It was the first time he had actually given an entire address in English, because that was the language of most of the national director, especially those from Africa, for example. And it's better than an Italian address. And then he stayed in, greeted us individually at the end of the meeting. So all of us had a chance 20 to 30 seconds with the successor of Saint Peter to be able to receive his words to give him some words, to ask for some prayer. Many brought gifts to him, and it was a very exciting way to start our time as national directors, meeting the new chief missionary, the church, one who was a missionary before he was elected pope. |
| Betsy | Pope Leo Well, I looked over the notes from last week, and you were hoping to talk to him about three things to ask him to help you support his 1124 missions and to ask him about prayer. And your big ask was going to be if he could only speak into your iPhone for about 15 seconds and make an appeal to the American people. What happened? Did you accomplish any of those months, Senior? |
| MSGR Landry | Well, basically, I think we have so the director of the secretary general is the name of the Society for the Vision of the Faith, which is one of the four missionary societies who is an interim coordinator of all the mission societies, because the archbishop who was in charge was given another hat to wear. He loved the idea of what I was going to be proposing to Pope Leo, and he was second in line to greet Pope Leo. And he brought up the whole question of doing a video saying that this was my proposal, the proposal of the American national director. And he was wondering if he'd be open to doing a video not just for America, but for the whole world. And Pope Leo showed great openness and he just said, listen, just write me formally because I can't remember everything. Everybody asks me in a big group like that. But he said that it would be open. So I hope he's going to say in his own words the language that I expressed last week. Hey, brothers and sisters throughout the world where you please help me, help our brothers and sisters in churches across the globe that are too poor to persecuted or too young in order to be self-supporting. I think America in particular would be very responsive to that. And I when I spoke to him, he was giving me rosary beads. And so I did mention to him that we've got familiar with the World Mission Rosary. And he said, of course. And I said some time, I'd love to have you record it. And he didn't he didn't respond to that right then because they were taking some photos. But I'll follow up on that with a written request a little bit later. And so the prayer of the rosary, especially the rosary in which we remember in each of the five decades, various continents, so that the gospel might take even greater route that was made by Fulton J. Sheen, my predecessor, back in the 1950s. That is what I'd love to have Pope Leo help on. But you can't ask him too many things at the same time. Otherwise, he says no, simply because he doesn't want an extra 2000 requests. Right. |
| Betsy | Monsignor Landry, I watched an interview that you gave in Rome, and I wanted to pull a quote and have you talk about it because I thought it was so inspiring. And you said to a reporter, for those who are part of that macro trend who are growing distant from the church, he's going to be able to make a new invitation to them in ways that are unambiguous. They might not fully get him yet, but boy, does he have a great smile. What do you think is particularly appealing about this macro trend of of these people who have fallen away? |
| MSGR Landry | So what I think is that was a quotation in which I was being asked what Pope Leo's message might be to Catholics in the U.S.. And so I said that the macro trend, especially among young people, is this trend of the none of the above, but the micro trend is much greater zeal for the faith in day to day life. So the quotation that you said, which was about the macro trend about people leaving. A lot of the times it's harder for them to hear the gospel. If the gospel is accented, if they're not really fully understanding how somebody speaking. And Pope Leo, despite his Chicago phonetics as a Bostonian, we don't have accents. Everybody else has accents. But despite Pope Leo, Chicago phonetics he speaks are a language. He speaks from within our culture. And I think he's going to be able to be heard by people who might have easily dismissed as something outside of their experience a direct appeal to consider the faith. And so that's what I was trying to get to there, that Pope Leo was understanding of the American mentality, both practicing Catholics as well as fallen away Catholics as well as Protestants, as well as those of no religion in these various surveys. He's very familiar with that reality, and I just think he's going to be more effective at it than perhaps any pope with ever had, because we're going to be able to hear him address us in an unambiguous way. And so that's what I'm very excited about. And many of the people you've seen, the sizes of the audiences that are coming, the fact that, like we have a pope now celebrating mass. Pope Francis was too sick at the end to celebrate the masses himself, to be vigorous as he's coming on out in the audiences riding around. Pope Francis heroically was in the popemobile, but now Pope Leo is standing as he's going around. I mean, he's he's able to do it with far greater vigor. All of this, I think, is a wonderful time for our own faith to be reset and for people to start asking some of the bigger questions that Pope Leo is going to be able to give the answer of Jesus to in ways that people are going to be much more easily able to perceive. |
| Betsy | Well, thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule in Rome, and we look forward to more conversations about Pope Leo, the 14th and all the women vigor he's bringing into the church. |
| MSGR Landry | Happy solemnity, ascension to you and to all those listening to us either on Thursday or on Sunday, regardless of where they are in the country. So happy ascension. |
| Betsy | Thanks, Monsignor Landry. Welcome back to Conversations with Consequences here on EWTN Radio. This is the month of May, where we remember and and venerate a blessed mother. But it's also foster care month. And we're happy to have Sara Sikorski with us today. She herself was personally touched by growing up in and out of the foster care system where she finally found a forever home. And she's here to share her story and her amazing pro-life work that she's devoted to. Sarah. Welcome to the show. |
| Sarah Zagorski | Thank you so much for having me. |
| Betsy | So we should probably begin with the story of your mother, who was an immigrant from Honduras to Louisiana. She was fleeing a tough situation there and set the stage for us of of her life in Louisiana and in your birth. |
| Sarah Zagorski | Sure. So, yeah, my birth mother was under an immigrant. She came to America on a boat with her sister. She was actually, at that time running from an abusive situation in Honduras with her family. And as you know, when you come to America, there's a lot to learn, a lot of changes. And she was only a teenager at that time. So she came to America. She did learn English, and she had to essentially immersed herself in the culture here. And that was very difficult for her. She ended up marrying and fortunately very young herself to someone who is just seeking out citizenship in the States and quickly began having children. And that's when her life kind of began to unfold in a life of poverty and a life of abuse in a life of a lot of pain. She'd a lot of mental health problems. And all this predated even her conception with me, even her pregnancy with me. |
| Betsy | So and you are number. |
| Sarah Zagorski | Seven, seven. |
| Betsy | So she had six children with her husband. And I guess she just figured that you were going to be too much for her to handle because tell our listeners the circumstances, really the tragic circumstances that you've turned into a beautiful story of your birth. Yeah. |
| Sarah Zagorski | So I just want to remind listeners to the I have such great compassion for women like my mother because she was just a woman who had a lot of suffering in her life and one of the main things I always say is it was a luxury to know her and to share in her suffering in many ways. But she had actually two previous abortions in her past prior to her conception with me. Her conception with me was a result of an extramarital affair that she had had. She actually the work she had in in New Orleans, which is where she resided, was as a part time maid. That was she was just kind of like jumping from house to house, cleaning homes. And she met my biological father, who was a physician, kind of promising her all the security she was looking for, all the relief from her social economic problems that she was seeking. But unfortunately, upon finding out of her pregnancy, he abandoned the scene. And she had, like I said, two previous abortions. So statistically speaking, we know that women who choose abortion once are just much more likely to choose it again. And as exactly what she did, she was referred to Dr. Colby in New Orleans, who ran a health center, health center here, I say in quotes. And she was told that he was a cheap doctor who helped women like her, women who were minority women and women who were struggling economically, who were poor. And he performed what is known as an induction style abortion with me at 26 and a half weeks. And after upon seeing me, she immediately said to him, I'm going to sue you because I wasn't breathing. And he wanted to leave me there to die. And which is what his, you know, the plan of that procedure was. And instead she fought back. And that resistance to his coercive behavior saved my life. She said, I'm going to you if you don't get my daughter medical attention right now. And I was into Children's Hospital trauma birth ward in New Orleans, where I did recover from an early delivery at 26 and a half weeks. |
| Betsy | Right. So you were a premature baby, but you were alive when you were born. Wow. That's a wild story. |
| Sarah Zagorski | And so it's a wild entry into the world. And to, you know, obviously my relation, my mother. And after learning about that history, many different grief in my heart about that decision for her, but also learning to understand why she made those decisions. So I've grown a lot in that capacity. |
| Betsy | Well, that's why I am so pleased that we're talking to you, because I think this is a story about forgiveness and redemption. |
| Sarah Zagorski | Absolutely. |
| Betsy | And so the the the harrowing part of your life continues because by 16 months you're in the foster care system along with your siblings, because your mother just I guess it was neglect and abuse going on in your home. |
| Sarah Zagorski | Yes. So in the foster care system and this is just, you know, fairly known, I think in our society, when kids enter foster care, it's a states decision. They investigate the family after they've been given a tip about familial abuse or neglect, which is exactly what happened in my case. And they went in and investigated it and found that there was sexual abuse in our family and they removed me from the home at that time. And that was it was at that time. I met an amazing family that was FOSTER What was interested in fostering It was an older couple who had no children of their own, and they they actually really like long term. They were devoted to me. No matter what happened in my situation. |
| Betsy | So how long were you with them, Sarah? |
| Sarah Zagorski | So I was back and forth with them for seven and a half years prior to my adoption. But I do what many children in foster care do, which is I reinterred I reinterred my birth family after being placed with them. And that was the most challenging time of my life. That as a time I can tell you about the social problems children who are usually placed in foster care face. And that is because my mom went on to quickly have more children and now I'm one of 11. And actually the same year I was born to a set of twins. At the end of that year, I was born in January and she decided twins at the end of that year. And we all were living in believable in impoverished, well below the federal poverty level, you know, status for enough income to support a family that large. And unfortunately, many of my memories with my birth family are ones of abuse and neglect and trauma because she was unable to care for us. She also had mental health issues throughout her life, which were certainly worsened from the abuse she had experienced from her husband and from other other individuals in our in our home. |
| Betsy | So it's really interesting because there must have been something really deep inside of your mother, you know, that wanted to be a mother and wanted to have a lot of children, even though clearly she had trouble caring for them. I mean, I think you said that when we were talking that you all ate insects because there wasn't enough food. |
| Sarah Zagorski | Yes. So, you know, my earliest memories and in my home and and they're just filled with such grief and sadness to me today because where we lived is not a way any child should ever live. Right. We were just eating insects off the ground for food. And when we had food, we're fighting for the food we had. The state would come and bring canned goods to the house and they were gone within moments. And, you know, in a situation like mine where there's so many children, I had siblings who are lot older than me and stronger than me. So myself and the two twins under me at that time, we would hide out in bathrooms with the little food we did have. And then also not just hiding because of the food, but hiding from the abuse in the home from members who were mentally ill and members who were sexually abusive to us. So that was that trauma. You know, the body keeps a score of that trauma. And all of my siblings have suffered because of the trauma we experience. It's there. And since the goal of foster care is always reunification, you know, my foster parents knew that this could happen, that they could get a call from the state like it's time for Sarah to go back home. And they told me the way they described it to me is I was excited to return home. I was excited to return to my birth family because, of course I loved my family deeply and love them today, deeply. Yet upon reentry into their home, into my into my foster parents home, the first thing my foster mother said to me was, you know, how are you doing? You know, I'm so glad to see you. And I immediately I said, Why didn't you come get me? Why did you get me? Because in my mind, you know, my foster parent at that young of an age I didn't understand. They didn't have a choice. You know, they didn't have a choice in that situation. |
| Betsy | So your mother tried to get her act together to be able to have her children back. Yeah. And in the midst of all this, you had a pulmonary issue as a toddler. Can you talk about that? |
| Sarah Zagorski | Yes. So I contracted active tuberculosis in my house from my stepfather, super rare. And I was the only one in the family to contract it. And the only way to treat that is through medical intervention, which I did receive. And that's because I went back with my foster parents, Bobby and Ronnie, who were able to provide that care. But I was on medication treatment for that and in care for that for a year and a half. And see, without the support of foster care, that would have killed me. And it's rare today for someone to pass away from tuberculosis unless they're elderly or they're, you know, they're in poor health or other respiratory reasons. But because of that vulnerability, I had foster was physically lifesaving for me, because without that care, I would have I would be. |
| Betsy | So how old were you when you found out the circumstances of your birth? And and tell us what it was like to come to terms with that, because you clearly have. I mean, you you you're so poised and you don't hide the pain and the trauma. But how did you come to know the circumstances of your birth? |
| Sarah Zagorski | Yes. So my mother decided to tell me around age seven. It was around that age. And it was actually before before my adoption and it was out of McDonald's. I'll never forget it. And, you know, she explained to me as much as you can explain how my son is seven. So I understand that that seven is a really young age to understand. But she she began to tell me this this story and, you know, about how she was going through a lot at the time and she'd understand 100% what she was doing, but that she loved me and I just had no understanding of how do you not understand what you're doing? I mean, even at seven, I knew in the womb, it's life, right? It's a baby that's growing and developing. I knew that I'm kind of inherently like we all know that. But she told me that and she says, I love you and I'm sorry. And we revisited that conversation, though. We revisited that conversation when I was in college. And those were very difficult conversations, and especially in my early twenties. It took me a long time to understand how can someone say, I didn't really understand what I was doing, and then also say, I want to do, but this is what I did, like the facts of the matter. You did this and you try and make excuses for it. That's how I saw it when I was younger. And you're just trying to make excuses for that decision. But now that I've had some time with her story and with her life, I believe she had a lot of regret and she had a lot of pain from all of those abortions, not just mine, but the one with my with the two other siblings in my family prior to my conception. And that grief really stayed with her her whole life. |
| Betsy | That's a really amazing way that you were able to come to terms with it. Are you in a relationship with your siblings or or what was you know, what what's that like? |
| Sarah Zagorski | So I have I have a phenomenal relationship with one of my sisters who is similar to me, but just similar. You know, she was in 22 foster care homes over the course of her life and was aged out of the foster care system. And her story and stories like ours are very important to get out there because, of course, the ongoing pain from that, it lasts the lifetime, you know, that that that lack of permanence lasts a lifetime. And we need foster care parents that are going to really be devoted to two children. But I do have a good relationship with her. Unfortunately, many of my siblings have passed away, and that is also not uncommon with backgrounds like mine. So I've we've you know, since 2010, my family's buried in total five people and that includes my mother and my stepfather. But that's what happens. That's the result of such sickness, you know, over over periods of time. Many of my siblings have had severe mental health problems. One is in a permanent facility for mental health problems and the other one that wasn't a permanent facility for mental health problems, passed away a couple of years ago. And this kind of suffering and this kind of pain, children need help with, they need support with. And I was just fortunate enough, by God's mercy and grace, to receive the gift of foster care in that capacity. |
| Betsy | So I'm glad you brought up God and his mercy and grace. Were you from a family of faith at all? Was was that present at all in your home? |
| Sarah Zagorski | So my birth mother's family was Catholic, but then in my foster care family, my mom was evangelical, my dad was Catholic. So they grew me up in a Christian tradition, which I believe was really life saving for me, because I met as a child the suffering savior who suffers with us and who mourns with us and grieves with us and walks with us. And I really had to have that experience in order to and, you know, the faithful mentorship of Christians to overcome the kind of tragedy I overcome. You know, when I was 15. Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans, and one of my sisters passed away from a drug overdose. And I I suffered a lot in a capacity that many people might be familiar with. And that's why me like, why did I have such a fortunate outcome? And all I can say, it was God's mercy and grace, but it also was the work of foster care and adoption. It was the work of Christians just showing up for modern day orphans. That's what it was. You know, that call to do that, that's pure and true religion, right? To care for the orphan and the fatherless. And and that's what I received. |
| Betsy | So you go through college and then you tell us you're about your adult life. You you reconcile with your mother. Were you ever estranged from your mother? No. |
| Sarah Zagorski | After my adoption, I did see my mother. And we we had visits and things like that. You know, the end of her life was very difficult because it was very sudden. She passed away 2010 when I was in college. Actually, at that time, my family was not and not well in any any way. And, you know, my sister and I, the one I'm close with, had to, you know, essentially handle those arrangements. Are alone. And I'm you know, I'm I'm 20 years old. I'm not you know this is it was just rocked my world at that time. But I did have some amazing and conversations with her prior to her passing away and her faith in in Christ at the end, I believe one in her life, despite her suffering and despite her mistakes. And I believe she sought forgiveness for her, her abortions and those things. And that's something that's a testament to people that have that have had abortions, that there is hope and healing for them. But I did have some redemption in the end. I can't say I saw that redemption when I was burying her in the ground, though. You know, I didn't see that when I entered her apartment. I remember entering her apartment at 20 and looking that the way she lived was still the was exactly the same how I lived as a child. She had not escaped that life of poverty in that life of suffering. And I just I looked at God and I said, you know, why did this happen and why? You know, I was hoping myself personally that at some point in my later adult life, I could come alongside her and help her, you know, that was my that was what I wished for. That's what I prayed for. So, of course, it's devastating when that that didn't happen the way I thought it would. |
| Betsy | And you think that you're mental health, you know, being healthy. You attribute that to the foster care parents that you had versus your siblings who struggled with the mental illness. |
| Sarah Zagorski | Yeah, I think it's a combination like everything in life. You know, I think with some of my siblings, they they did have a propensity and we all have had a propensity toward mental health problems. I struggle with extreme depression, anxiety for many, many years, and I still do today. But my foster care parents were unique in that they they had this sole focus of whatever is best for Sarah. And I think that my siblings were they also entered the system older, which is harder the longer child is in a traumatic environment to heal from those things. So I think in my situation, I do attribute much of my health to my foster care family and to my subsequent adoption. At nine, it was like right at that age before I became a teenager, you know, so which is a really critical time in a young girl's life. So I attribute it as a combination of things, but It definitely was the work of both of those things together that attributes to my health today. |
| Betsy | So you had a stable family environment for your teenage years, right? I get that is really, really crucial. |
| Sarah Zagorski | It's life changing. And, you know, even I want to say this, too, about my foster care parents and sitters foster care month. And I you know, I'm very close with my dad did mother who who's the one I'm talking about today she's 80 today and she would bring my birth family hygiene bags and food and she did everything within her power to try to help all of us. that's really beautiful. That's really the heart of really Christ in the gospel, Right. Is to as to do all that you can help someone. And that to me is beautiful. Because she knew, of course, that if my mom did improve and get better, she would lose me as her daughter. You know, she would lose the ability to to to care for me. But she didn't look at that. She looked at, I need to help this woman and this this child in this family. She threw birthday parties for my siblings. She did all kinds of things to try to reach out to all of them. Of course, within limitations, she could not she you know, just she was a kindergarten teacher. And my dad worked at the DMV you know, they couldn't take them all in, but they did everything they could, which is what is so beautiful to me today. |
| Betsy | That's incredible. That really is. So what, you became an adult. Did you immediately think I want to be in the pro-life movement? Tell us that pass. |
| Sarah Zagorski | Yes, absolutely not. I innocence. You know, I think what it was was I was still grieving and healing when I was when I got out of college was like, so my mother had just passed away. I always had the desire to share my story in a public way, but I didn't have enough impetus, you know, as as, you know, as a teenager, I had different experiences that led me toward the movement as a whole. Like one experience I had. I went to Wichita, Kansas, when George Tiller was there, and he's a late term abortion physician, and he had a full crematorium on his grounds. And I remember sitting there with my adopted mom with her pro-life sign, and she was peacefully praying. And I had some dirt on my paper. And I'm like, Mom, what's this dirt on my paper? And she said, That's not true, Sarah. That's that's the ashes from the babies that passed away in this facility that die from these abortions. And and now is it that at age 11 remember, this is a couple of years after my adoption, that was a moment in time where I realized how close I was to becoming just a pile of ashes. And I believe in my heart. I committed to God to to to be involved in the pro-life movement. But as I got older, I would go back and forth. You know, I would. I would because it's so personal. It's so personal, and it's very challenging to share. |
| Betsy | So when did you start wanting to tell your story, wanting to talk about resilience and redemption? How how did that come about? |
| Sarah Zagorski | I would say when I was in college, I was a communication major in college and I began to realize that I really felt inclined to writing and speaking. And I love those things. And I knew that the Lord had a purpose for my story that he wanted to share with others the gift I was given through foster care, adoption, through pro-life advocacy, both through support counselors, through all the things that pro-life ministries do. I saw that he wanted to use my story in that capacity. So I pursued communication studies in college and graduate in 2012, and then I was offered a position at that time with Louisiana Right to Life, and that was in 2012 or 13. And I you know, I haven't left the pro-life movement ever since. |
| Betsy | So so in college, did you ever tell any of your peers your story? Did you ever say I was left on the table of an abortionist? Yes. My mom decided, you know, that she actually did want me to live. |
| Sarah Zagorski | Yes, I did. I did share it and I did share it. Even, you know, younger. I would go to you know, when I was in high school, I shared it on a panel at Louisiana State University. I shared at different points in my journey, you know, to to a degree where I had enough healing to talk about it and the capacity then of healing to talk about it. But in college, yeah, my peers definitely knew and they knew that that was something I was really passionate about. Is the pro-life work and caring for women that are in need. So I think a lot of my my teachers at that time knew I might end up pursuing pro-life ministry long term. |
| Betsy | Did you feel like anyone maybe changed their mind or got a different perspective? Like hear this girl is in front of me who, by all you know, rights, shouldn't be born if everybody had their way and. |
| Sarah Zagorski | Basically can. |
| Betsy | You tell us any any, you know, any any instances you remember where you're having this conversation and you tell them what happened and they have some kind of epiphany where they they understand the reality of what happens when a 26 week old person is allowed to be born. |
| Sarah Zagorski | Now is remember, I went to a a Christian based school and most of them were pro-life. But the arguments I did hear that I, even in college, even in a Christian, be setting, was, well, we have all these children in foster care. And because of that, you know, women need options. I even heard that in a Christian, on a Christian and a Christian setting. And I think that was one of the the hardest ones for me personally to address because I, I that time that hurt me. It was you're saying essentially that I shouldn't be here because I suffered in my in my family and in the system and that my life isn't valuable and will have purpose later. However, when I shared with them that pain and I shared with them, look, I believe the Lord is healing for me and that my life has purpose. Even though I suffered. I don't believe in a philosophy of if you're destined to suffer, you should be destined to die, which is what the abortion industry and that believes in. And I believe that strength and not from from someone who has suffered. Right. Someone that has said, no, I did suffer after my mother's abortion and in the system I suffered. But there was such beauty that came from that and such a purpose that came from that. It was that part of the story that got to them, that made them think about their pro abortion leanings or positions. |
| Betsy | And are you someone who advocates really strongly for the foster care system now? And because it kind of gets a bad rap, talk to us a little bit about that. |
| Sarah Zagorski | Yes, absolutely. I I definitely am involved with a lot of foster care advocacy. Mostly my advocacy for that is focusing on ensuring that the system and where where I stand today doesn't let children languish, languish in care for for too long because that is so damaging to a child's lack of permanence. So that's where I stand on the issue of foster care. But I recognize that without my foster care parents who were just a godsend to me, I wouldn't I wouldn't be here today. I would have, I believe I would have passed away from a teenage overdose, from the from the trauma in my birth family. And I recognize your space. And there's so many parents out there that want children that if they open their heart to foster care, open their heart to the ministry Jesus has. Through that, I believe their lives will be changed for the better. I mean, it changes the child's life. It also changes the parents life, you know? So I'm because of that, I am an advocate and I've seen a variety. Like you said, it gets a bad rap. I've seen a variety of outcomes of children at foster care. However, I know that it's the family that determines the you know, the family that they're placed in that can determine that child's the rest of that child's life. |
| Betsy | Well, you're a poster girl for foster care at its best, that's for sure. You live in New Orleans and you are a mother. |
| Sarah Zagorski | Yes, I have a almost eight year old son now. And now that I have become a mother and now that I've I've experienced my own life's journey again, all of these things have strengthened my pro-life convictions. They have helped me have greater compassion for women like my mom, who are in domestic violence situations, women who are single parents, women who are struggling in their own life. I've becoming a mother has changed how I view all of it because I see the sacrifice moms make, you know, the work it takes to raise a child and those sort of things. So I'm very blessed in that way. I always call my son the love of my life I didn't know I needed. So I'm very blessed. But you can't go through having a child and without having a strengthening of your of your pro-life convictions. |
| Betsy | And so what more do you think people can do to help those in the foster care system? |
| Sarah Zagorski | So one thing to remember is, you know, not everyone is in a position to foster themselves today, but there's other services they can provide, like respite care for families. That's one service they can provide. They can offer meals to foster care parents, these are all things that really help the foster care parents navigate the newness of having a child in their home that that is brought in to them. I think supporting foster care parents through other ministries is very important that they have healthy relationships, healthy faith relationships, so that they can help that child grow, but also keep themselves healthy in the midst of it. So I think that's one thing I always advocate for, because I know not everyone's the position to take in a, you know, a foster child at this time, but there's always something we can do to help them. |
| Betsy | Well, this is a beautiful story that I hope everyone listens to and takes to heart. Thank you for coming on the show and sharing your resilience, your faith, your gratitude is really an uplifting story that could have had a very, you know, a different ending and come back and tell us more. We'd love to have you back and to learn more about Z Gorski, please visit Sara Legacy.com and make sure to visit the Catholic Association, Talk to learn more about us. Thanks for being on the show, Sara. |
| Sarah Zagorski | Thank you so much. |