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Episode Description
With The Ritual hitting theaters starring Al Pacino & Patricia Heaton, Father Aaron Williams, who served as a consultant for the film, shares details of the most documented exorcism case in the United States, what it was like working with Al Pacino, and potential conversions that resulted from the filming.
As we mark one month of the Pope Leo XIV pontificate, we talk with EWTN’s Matthew Bunson all about the first biography written on this US-raised, baseball-loving Augustinian Pope who is also a mathematician and canon lawyer. The biography, released in May, follows Pope Leo’s life, beliefs, and remarkable journey to the seat of St. Peter.
Msgr. Roger Landry also joins with a unique look into ways we can celebrate the 1700th anniversary of the Council of Nicaea this summer. The original council, held in 325 AD, affirmed the divinity of Jesus Christ and produced the Nicene Creed.
Bios
Father Aaron Williams is a priest of the Diocese of Jackson, Mississippi and rector of the Basilica of St. Mary in Natchez. He is a graduate of Notre Dame Seminary in New Orleans where he earned his Masters in Divinity, and received his M.A. in Liturgical Studies from the Liturgical Institute of Mundelein, Illinois. He serves on the Board of Directors for the Society for Catholic Liturgy. He recently served as a consultant for the film, The Ritual, which was filmed at St. Mary’s Basilica and released in theaters in June. The movie documents the most widely publicized exorcism in American history. Father Aaron chose to accept the invitation because he “wanted to be involved with helping to convey a true story in a really accurate way.”
Matthew Bunson is the vice president and editorial director for EWTN News and an active voice for Catholic social communication and education. He regularly writes and teaches on issues relating to Church history, the papacy, the saints, and Catholic culture. A prolific author, he has written over 50 books including The Encyclopedia of Catholic History, The Pope Encyclopedia, We Have a Pope! Benedict XVI, and best-selling biographies. He holds a Master of Arts in Pastoral Theology from St. Joseph’s College, and a Master of Divinity in Theology and Church History from Sydney College of Divinity in Australia. He earned a Doctor of Ministry in Pastoral Theology and PhD in Theological Studies from South Bend, Indiana. His most recent work, Leo XIV: Portrait of the First American Pope, is the first biography to be published about the new pontiff.
Monsignor Roger Landry is a priest of the Diocese of Fall River, Massachusetts. He writes for numerous publications, speaks on radio and TV, and is the author of the book, Plan of Life: Habits to Help You Grow Closer to God. A graduate of Harvard and the Pontifical North American College in Rome, he served as Attaché to the Holy See’s Permanent Observer Mission to the United Nations in New York. Father Landry traversed the full 1500-mile Eucharist Pilgrimage in 2024 and joined the historic Eucharistic Congress in Indianapolis, an event which coincided with his 25th year in the priesthood. In 2024, he was appointed the new National Director of the Pontifical Mission Societies in the USA by Pope Francis.
The following transcript is machine generated.
Episode 320 Transcript
| Betsy | Welcome to Conversations with Consequences here on EWTN Radio. I'm your host is Betsy Fentress. |
| Mary | And I'm Mary Fiorito. |
| Betsy | And we are here with Father Aaron Williams, who was the adviser to a new movie coming to theaters in June, starring Al Pacino and Patricia Heaton and several others. And the ritual is the name of the movie, and it's coming to the theaters June six, and it is based on a well-documented exorcism, actually, the most thoroughly documented exorcism that ever occurred in this country. And that happened in 1928. The exorcism of Emma Schmidt. Father Williams, thank you for joining us today. |
| Fr. Aaron Williams | Thank you for having me. |
| Betsy | So tell us how you got involved in being the what would you call adviser to the film or making sure that all the Catholic rituals were properly portrayed? |
| Fr. Aaron Williams | Yeah. So they called me the liturgical consultant. So my involvement didn't begin that way. So I'm the rector of the Basilica of Saint Mary in Natchez, Mississippi, where the film was was fully filmed here. Everything was done on our property. And originally I just saw myself as the host. But my background is literally I have a master's in liturgical studies and I'm pursuing a Ph.D. in liturgy. Right now. I sit on the board of directors at the Society for Catholic Liturgy. And so as the as the director and the producer got to know me, they they realized my background. And they started sending me questions as they were preparing the script about different elements of ritual costumes, ecclesial life, until they approached me and said, would you be willing to actually serve as a consultant for the film? And and this wasn't the first time I had asked to be involved with the film. There's another film about three years ago. I was asked to advise on that. Disappointingly, actually never was was completed, but I was excited for this opportunity. And when they arrived in Natchez to begin the filming, I ended up being on set every day, not for the full day, but I was on set every day and observe what they were doing and were able to provide commentary and work with the actors and with the team. And it was just a a really eye opening experience for me. But I think it also allowed the film to approach what the director really wanted, right? He wants an accurate portrayal of extras, but also just really of ecclesial life and the church and the priesthood, which is the only reason I was really interested in that film to begin with was how intentional they were about making this accurate. |
| Mary | Well, I know that at least Patricia Heaton among the stars of this film is very serious about her Catholic faith. And she actually has, if I recall correctly, a sister who was a religious sister who's a Dominican. So I know that would be important to her personally, but I'm grateful that they seemed to really want to get it right, which is so frustrating, I think, for practicing Catholics when we go to see some of these films and you think, you know, that would never happen, that would never happen, you know, it's all the stuff of fantasy. But, Father, let's go. Just back to the woman who is the subject of the film, Emma Schmidt. And as Betsy mentioned at the outset, one of the best documented cases of an exorcism. It seems that the movie seems to hint at the fact that she had a long life of suffering before she was able to be exercised. Can you explain a little bit about her life and how her story unfolded? |
| Fr. Aaron Williams | Yes, she had suffered for for many years. And in fact, the the priest that Al Pacino plays in the movie had once before attempted an exorcism on her and was unsuccessful. And several years had passed. The diocese in Iowa, where she was had an exercise designed to it and basically had not been able to had much success. And so the bishop had begun communication with Rome, who then reassigned father, the adolescent Al Pacino's character, to return and perform this exorcism again. And so the movie really focuses on that, that end of the story. He returned to the United States and the dynamic that plays out between Al's character and then Dan Stevens character as the parish priest, Father Steiger, and his interior struggle of dealing with the priesthood. You know, he's he's dealing with some battles himself spiritually and also the way this story impacted the religious sisters and the convent where this exorcism had been performed, so that the bishop of the diocese in Iowa had determined that to protect Emma's identity and also to make sure that she was safe, that she be relocated to a convent for these exorcisms. Which becomes a strain on the life of the sisters as well. And so, you know, the the movie, you know, viewing the movie and watching it is, in my opinion, far more about their story. Right? It's about the story of these priests, the story of the sisters, and how the church all comes together in this instance to assist this one woman, Emma, who's struggling, which is what the church ultimately does. Right. We go after that one lost sheep. So I think it's why it's it's well done. It's a good story to tell. |
| Betsy | How frequently do priests perform exorcisms? Is it or you know, in a diocese, how often does that happen? |
| Fr. Aaron Williams | So I'm not an exorcist myself. I am a spiritual director for an exorcist. So I have some conversations with them. You know, when we think of exorcism, normally we think of what the church refers to as a solemn exorcism, which are not as common as I think Hollywood makes it out to be. You know, now every priest in the world gets calls for exorcisms all the time. |
| Betsy | Really? |
| Fr. Aaron Williams | I priest get a lot of calls. And, you know, normally, if someone is struggling with something and, you know, the the pastor intervenes and I may go to bless the house or, you know, there's someone struggling with something in their family. But when a solemn extra time occurs, what ends up happening is the the diocese goes through a process to sort of rule every other explanation out. Right. They they look at it from a medical standpoint. They look at it from a psychological standpoint and determine that there is no other explanation, that we're dealing with something that's a spiritual issue here that can only be addressed by the Sacramento's of the church right through a solemn exorcism. And then the bishop is the only one with that authority. Right? He appoints the diocesan Exorcist to perform this right. You know, and because of the what's the word I want to say, the sort of exaggerated interest that people do have upon exorcism. You know, dioceses are very protective of this, right? They're protective of the identity of The Exorcist, and they're very cautious about this. And that's not to keep it secret as much as it is to, one, protect people from becoming interested in things that really don't need to be interested in right for their own spiritual well-being, but also, you know, underscored the severity of this. Right. We're dealing with all evil, right? And the enemy is not someone to play with, you know, So we we take it seriously. |
| Mary | Well, this movie, I think, is going to draw a lot of parallels with The Exorcist. And I remember a Jesuit that I had for theology when I was an undergraduate talking about being on the set for The Exorcist and how things like clocks would stop and strange things would happen. And my friend Sister BROSH McKenna always says, Don't give the devil any glory. So I don't want to I don't say that to glorify the evil at all. But did you how did you spiritually prepare to go onto the set of this movie? |
| Fr. Aaron Williams | Yeah. So thankfully we didn't have any sort of phenomena like that occurring. But you know, very early on in the filming, the production crew actually had approached me and said that among all of them they had just been feeling a sort of heaviness while they were filming and they asked if I would begin blasting the set every day. So actually every morning I would walk through sometimes based on my calendar. It couldn't be when they were there, but I would go early in the morning and I bless the whole set of where they filmed it and of course, pray for them. But I also started to sort of see it as you know, yes, I was their host. Yes, I was consulting. But for the 2 to 3 months these people were here, I was also their pastor. Right. And so I needed to care for these people. And and many of them came to Mass on Sunday, including a great number of non-Catholics. They would attend mass here on Sunday. And I think their experience of interacting with the priests, interacting with the church was also spiritually beneficial to them as well. And everything was was done in a very reverent and respectful way. Right. So anything that was filmed in the church, the Blessed Sacrament, was removed for nothing occurred in the church that was vulgar in any way, you know, and, and there was never a question that there would be anything like that. Those were very respectful of that father. |
| Betsy | Al Pacino really is the star of this film in terms of star power. I mean, he's the most well known. What was he like to work with? I thought his his characterization of The Exorcist was phenomenal. |
| Fr. Aaron Williams | I completely agree. I've been telling people watching him on screen, he's the kind of priest on screen that faithful Catholics look at him like, well, that's a holy priest. Yeah, I think he does a very good job portraying a priest that people can respect and and be proud of as a person. He was he was really a delight to work with. He was only here for a few days every week because that's how his calendar allowed it. But he was very easygoing with me. I would laugh at people that I would walk into my kitchen and opportunities making coffee at my countertop, but we were able to have a some time together early in production. He and I and some of the other members of the other other actors had lunch together and had some very deep conversations. And originally I thought these would be a lot more about performative matters. How do you do this gesture? How do you pronounce this Latin word? But all of Ali's questions were theological. You know, why would someone suffer this way, guarded, or why was God allowing this? Why does God need the priest to act, that sort of thing? And we had some really good conversations and and that impressed me right, that he he was very interested in understanding more than just knowing how to do it, you know. |
| Mary | How did your parishioners react to the film being done there? |
| Fr. Aaron Williams | Yeah, I mean, there was a mixed response. There were a lot of people who were very excited about it. This is the first time the basilica is going to be seen in a movie. And a lot of members of the parish were able to serve as extras, particularly for the scene of the mass. I was able to get some boys from our school to serve as altar boys for the mass scenes. I did have a few people that were skeptical of the idea of an exorcism being filmed here for really for spiritual purposes, right? And. And I did have an exorcist come in and exercise that property after everything was done to kind of settle some people's minds as well. And yes, I'm curious to see what people's reception with the people here is going to be when they actually see the film, how the reception will be. But I was say majority people were excited for the opportunity, but I knew I would have mixed responses. There's no one. |
| Betsy | Know there's a tension in the film between the Al Pacino character in the Dan Stevens character, The Priest and The Exorcist, and I won't do it. I don't want to spoil it. But how that gets resolved at the end is is really beautiful. But I was just wondering in terms of the reality of that, do you think that there's a lot of exorcists who say, no, this really is this is a satanic power that's overtaken this person and priests and family want to lean more toward It's a psychiatric problem. |
| Fr. Aaron Williams | Yeah. I mean, I'm sure that that happens. You know, actresses struggle spiritually themselves. And I you hear stories about actresses to wake up late at night and they can't sleep, and they're having to, like, wander the house, praying the rosary because the enemy is is spiritually attacking them. And you see that play out in the film as well. I think that dynamic that you're talking about between his character and Dan's character, it's a major part of the story because you you know, you have ALS priest. On one hand, there is this sort of pillar of faith. And then you have Dan's priest, who's not without faith, but he's struggling with his own identity as a priest, and he's struggling with understanding that this is a spiritual reality. And then again, without spoiling it, you know, the way that Rizal plays brings him to a moment of great humility, right? And a great appreciation of the priesthood. And that's one of the reasons I really am proud of this film, because as a priest, you don't see a lot of movies that show the priesthood in a really great like the way this movie does. And I'm hoping the Catholics will see that and appreciate the way the movie tells that story. |
| Mary | Well, the other interesting aspect is the inclusion of women religious who, you know, are staffing the convent. There. And I don't think I've ever seen a movie or a program or show about an exorcism that's included women religious. Was that historically based? Was that or was it just to kind of introduce a new dimension? |
| Fr. Aaron Williams | Yes, it was. So, you know, in the end, the story itself, the exorcism is performed at the convent. You know, as I mentioned, to kind of keep it away from the public eye. But it messes with the life of these sisters. Right, because they're having this interior battle of they have a fundamental desire as faithful sisters, right, to serve this woman and care for her. But it's also messing up their day to day routine. And they're uncomfortable with the situation. And they they just wish it would go away. And so you're seeing that play out where, you know, there's there's a scene where one of the sisters, she just wants it all to go away and then she feels really guilty that she feels that way, you know, And I can imagine a holy sister being like that, you know, wanting to do the right thing and deciding to do the right thing, but still struggling with it. And that's the reality of the faith. But yeah, so I think their inclusion is is so important to the story, but also sort of important to show the reality of what the church looks like. |
| Betsy | To follow up a little bit with what Mary said. Were any of your parishioners actually or your people from Natchez in the movie as extras? |
| Fr. Aaron Williams | Yeah. So we did particularly for the the the scenes that take place in the church. There is there's three scenes from mass on and then there's a scene outside the church. So there's a number of people from our parish who are there. Some of them are laypeople. Some of them dress up in sisters themselves in the movie. So they're in their habits. And there are two boys from our school. That was actually the only request I made of the director is I said that you're going to let me pick boys from our school that can serve this mass. And he agreed. So they came and served the mass. And so they're all excited about seeing it themselves. You know, I've been telling their moms, you know, you can see his face here and that kind of thing. And but, yeah, I think it it adds a level of interest here. But I think it also helped them, you know, understand the reality of of what the story is trying to tell as well. |
| Mary | Right. Well, Father, since it was it's set in 1928, obviously the liturgies are all the pre-Vatican two liturgies and the vestments reflect that. I noticed that right away. But did you have to structurally do anything in your cathedral to accommodate for that? Or is was your cathedral able to, you know. |
| Fr. Aaron Williams | With a that's the only thing we the the freestanding altar we have is it's not bolted to the ground. So we're able to the bishop allowed us to move it out of the way for the filming. Our basilica benefits from a wonderful archive and we so everything you see in the movie is not only vestments that would have been used in the the pre reform liturgy, but actually are there vestments that are tied to the 1920s? So even down to the linen altar cloth and the altar altar cloth that would have been used here, the 1920s, the altar cards that we used are from actually from the late 1800s. And so, you know, nothing that was recreated. We use all the historic things that we have here, and we're blessed that we're able to have those in our archives. It's funny that you mention that, though, because so the director is Jewish and he had some understanding of the literature as a form but didn't know it fully. So when we were planning those scenes, I had sat down with him and I, I basically asked him, I said, Do you want this to be accurate or do you kind of want to have a more approachable look? And he said, We want to be accurate. So that's okay. Well, then the mass has to be this way. And one really interesting story I can tell you this shows you their attention to detail was the director was aware that our readings go by a cycle in the lectionary and so he had approached me on point. He said, I need a reading that can point to this theme that would have been read on a Sunday in 1928 towards the end of October or early November. Right. So I had to pull out liturgical calendars and look at missiles and I think it's the 23rd Sunday after Pentecost. They use a line from the epistle for that mass, you know, and they never explicitly say that during the the movie, but they wanted it to be so accurate that people can go back and find those details and realize they did their homework. You know? |
| Betsy | Father, do you see this movie as having evangelization opportunities that maybe some people think some people get wrong? You know, kind of what Al Pacino said, you know, why do things happen to people? Do you see it as opening up conversations? And have you had any cast members or crew that became more interested in the Catholicism by the end of the filming? |
| Fr. Aaron Williams | Yes. You know, the the director's goal with the film is he wanted to tell a story that shows how the whole church came together for this one woman. And it's you know, I mentioned this conversation with Al where he asked, you know, why would God allow someone to suffer? I told him the story of the man born blind in scripture, you know, And Jesus asked the question of why was this man born blind? And ultimately, you know, Christ explained that he was born blind so that God could be glorified. Right? And so in and in all things right, God permits our freedom because he desires our law. But we can't love him authentically unless we have the ability to reject him. And so the movie star in that dynamic, right. We have absolute freedom and God's preventing that. And and then his mercy enters them through the church and the sentence, right? The whole church comes together for that one lordship, basically. And so I'm hoping that in an evangelical way, right. People who see the film can get a good impression of the ministry of the church and the love of God and the mercy of God and the Ministry of Priests and the Ministry of these Women's religious. And then in a personal way that the people who were involved also, I think, were impacted here. So I mentioned that a number of them went to mass on Sunday, particularly the the crew are the people who were responsible for the set and the props and a lot of wonderful conversations with them, people who became interested in the faith. Someone that's still talking to me in over over a year after production doesn't live anywhere near here, right. They're gone back to where they live. But they're still talking to me about the faith and they're on that journey as well. And I think their experience opened and opened their mind to this reality that, yes, this is a movie, but this isn't a fantasy. We're telling the true story. |
| Mary | Well, Father, what about your Protestant brothers and sisters in Mississippi there? And I know it's not a very heavily Catholic area to begin with. You know what's interesting? One of these kind of after the Holy Father died, Pope Francis died. You know, you see a lot of Protestants coming forward saying, you know, the Catholic Church is not what Jesus intended, blah, blah, blah. But one of the responses I saw from some of which I thought was quite good, was But when you need an exorcism, what religion do you go to? Right? And so I thought, good to share for you. But how would how did the Protestant pastors in the area react to the film being done? And have you had conversations with them? |
| Fr. Aaron Williams | I haven't had any conversations with with ministers in town. I've had conversations with a lot of people. But the mayor, for instance, was very interested in this happening here. Obviously, Natchez is a very close knit community. You're right. This is so the state of Mississippi is about 2% Catholic. Natchez is about 11% Catholic, and that's the highest percentage anywhere in the state. So, you know, so it's not a very Catholic area yet. Despite that, our basilica is the centerpiece of town. So there's this weird dynamic in this city where Catholicism is a small group, and yet it really formed sort of the ethos of the whole city. So people were very interested in this happening. There were always cars passing by watching to see, you know, what was what was happening out at the church. But yeah, I am I am curious about how we'll play out. One thing we did do in the community here is after the filming was done, a local college had approached me and asked if they could do a lecture series on the problem of evil, Exorcism and death. And so we had some lectures here, and I was able to speak on one about exorcism itself. And of course, a lot of people came to those were not Catholic. So it also was an opportunity, I think, for formation just in the general community here. |
| Betsy | I've read recently, and maybe this is just because social media promotes, you know, conversations about all this, that that there are more exorcisms than there used to be, that there is a sense that there's some really kind of deep seeded evil and that that needs exorcism to dispel it. Can you talk about that? |
| Fr. Aaron Williams | Yeah, I've heard the same thing. And you know, in this area of the country, we still have a lot of obsession with the occult. You know, we're close enough to New Orleans that there's a lot of voodoo and that sort of thing in town. And I do see that in some of the homes I go into here. But I think part of the reason we're seeing a rise today, though, is technology makes sense. So much more easier to approach now. You think about the proliferation of pornography and how people kind of get attached to that. So much easier than it used to be when you had to go buy books, you know, magazines, that kind of thing. And the enemy works about right. And exorcists talk about wounds, and you have a wound that sort of festers. Right? And he wants us to hide that wound so we can fester more. And I think we're living in a culture right now that's exalting evil and allowing those wounds to fester. And so we're seeing the spiritual ramifications of that which manifest themselves not just in our I think the, you know, a lack of virtue in people, but now we're seeing it also manifest in these sort of spiritual and demonic attacks. And I think that's why, you know, for instance, the USCCB two or three years ago published that little pamphlet, you know, Prayers Against Darkness or whatever. It's in title. Which are those prayers from the right of exorcism? I think it's a matter that we shouldn't high right? We need to educate people about spiritual warfare and tell them the reality of it and why they need to invest themselves in spiritual warfare in a way that doesn't make it interesting. I guess you can say like we're not we don't want you to become interested in this because you think it's really fun to look at. Right? Wants to be interested in this because you need to know it's a it's a reality. You have to face that evil is real. |
| Mary | And that's a fine line, isn't it? Because you don't again, want to give it any glory. You don't want to draw attention to it, but you can't pretend it's not there and that it doesn't exist. It'll it'll be interesting to see if this has the kind of popularity that The Exorcist. I mean, still has. Decades after it was done, you can go to the Georgetown neighborhood of Washington, D.C. and see the stares that were filmed. And, you know, they're advertised that way. |
| Fr. Aaron Williams | You know, it's funny because when they filmed that here, someone had said, these are going to be the stairs for the ritual movie. You're looking at. |
| Betsy | The other question that I wanted to ask you is, do you think that anything was overexaggerated farther in that movie? It's hard for me to believe that, you know, you can walk into a room and, you know, someone's got all these scars and bruises and bleeding all over them. And it feels obviously fantastic in that sense. But but obviously, these things really have happened in the course of history. |
| Fr. Aaron Williams | Yeah. So there are five exorcism scenes in the movie. And, you know, they did some consulting with Other Exorcist. The first four scenes particularly, I would say everything you're seeing in are things that are phenomenal. We hear reported and exorcisms. And in the fifth scene I think you see as well, I do think that there are some liberties in the script in that last scene which are taking more so to resolve the story. But I don't think they go to the level of the sort of theatrical things you see in The Exorcist, for instance. But yes, I mean, absolutely. Some of the things you see, you know, the woman is able to speak in different languages or she exhibits great strength. And these are phenomena that actresses look for when they're trying to determine if this is really a spiritual malady or not. |
| Mary | And there seems to be a great emphasis in the film. I don't think this is giving anything away about knowing the name of the person or the entity, the spiritual entity the priest is talking to. Can you speak a little bit about that? Why there's that focus on the name? |
| Fr. Aaron Williams | Yeah, you know, there's a there's a power to names, and that's something that's part of the rite of exorcism, right. As The Exorcist demands the name of the one who demands the name and the time that the demon will depart. But even look at the roles that names in Scripture, right? I mean, the Book of Revelation, where God promises he's going to give us a new name. Right. And you think about the Simon becomes Peter and Saul becomes Paul. And how are we placing emphasis on baptismal names? And there's something about the power of of our name that God's calling us by our name and and our identity. Right as an individual person. As you guys, I you can see that it does play a sort of spiritual role. And that's something that's one part of the writer of exorcism for a very long time. You know The rite actually it directs the priest. You know, he has questions he's supposed to ask the demon, but he cannot answer the questions they ask him, you know. And but that's one of the questions you have to ask is the name of the demon he's possessing. |
| Betsy | Well, Father, we are so grateful that you came to talk to us today. We've been speaking with Father Aaron Williams, who's a consultant for the new movie The Ritual, which will premiere in theaters on June 6th. To learn more about the ritual, please visit the ritual movie icon and make sure to visit the Catholic Association dot org to learn more about us. Thank you, Father. |
| Fr. Aaron Williams | Thank you. |
| Mary | Welcome back to Conversations with Consequences here on EWTN Radio. I'm your hostess, Ashley McGuire. |
| Betsy | And I'm Betsy Fentress. |
| Mary | And we are just one month into the pontificate of Pope Leo the 14th. And we are delighted to welcome on to the show for the first time. Dr. Matthew Brunson to discuss his new book out on Pope Leo the 14th called Leo The 14th Portrait of the First American Pope. Welcome to the show, Matthew. |
| Dr. Matthew Bunson | Well, it's a pleasure to be with you. And I'm so happy that I finally a guest on your show because I'm a big fan of it. |
| Mary | Well, it was a privilege for me to be a guest on your show in Saint Peter's Square a month ago. And what an extraordinary time you were there for many, many weeks. You were covering the funeral of the Holy Father and then the conclave. Tell our listeners you were we were very excited to talk about your book, but tell our listeners a little bit about what it was like to be there in that moment, especially this truly historic moment of the first American pope. |
| Dr. Matthew Bunson | Yeah, I use the phrase on and here quite a bit. This was a journey. This is the journey for the whole church. And in some ways, it began on February 14 when Pope Francis first was admitted to the Gemelli Hospital. And we began to learn in the days after just how serious his medical conditions were with the respiratory problems and the pneumonia. And of course, at the end of the day, he did not fully recover from that and eventually came to life. So then his passing on Easter Monday is still a bit of a surprise for everyone, myself included, because he seemed to be improving. Certainly there are going to be some major health problems for him, but he died on Easter Monday. So there is this beautiful moment, I think, for the church to be able to say farewell to him on Easter Sunday. But that was just part of the journey, because we then, as a family of faith, traveled that road of saying farewell to him. We had his funeral, then we had the novena delays, but then we also had to focus on as a church the task ahead for the cardinals who had gathered in Rome, having into the conclave in the Sistine Chapel. So a series of very, very intense moments. But it was a whole time frame, a whole journey of faith, of mourning, then anticipation, and then a certain excitement as we all waited for the smoke that will matter and to come out of the Sistine Chapel. And then that moment and what a surprise. Certainly I the that we can only very, very rarely say that something is unprecedented in the history of the church. Well, something by then president, we had the first US born pope. The series is a pretty amazing event. And I didn't use the word amazing lightly, but this was one of those circumstances. |
| Betsy | Well, you were given the gift as an American Catholic, American Catholic journalist of all of a sudden being able to have a book idea that was made in lightning speed. Did you sleep for the last three weeks trying to figure out how in the world you put this book together so quickly? |
| Dr. Matthew Bunson | Well, I was very fortunate that in 2005, right after the election of Pope Benedict 16th, I was able to write a very quick bio and then I did it again in 2013 for the election of Pope Francis. So I had some idea of what was needed for this type of a biography. This time around, unlike 2005 and 2013, I wasn't able to live the life of a hermit for a week. So I had some research help and other things. But it really depends. And the key to it is understanding what you're trying to do. There's a temptation to start down the road of, Well, we need to have this 500 page bio of the new pope when really what we needed, and that's why we chose that So clearly in the title, we wanted a portrait. We wanted to introduce people to Pope Leo the 14th, his life, his influences, what were the things that shaped him? What were the things that made the Cardinals turn to him as the new Holy Father? What was it that drew them to him? And then, based on what we have seen in the early days of his pontificate, where do we think he's headed, especially in terms of the leadership for the church, his vision for the church? I'm happy to say that in the intervening days since the book was actually published, because it's out, he has done a number of things, I think that in some ways reinforce some of the assumptions or some of the thinking that went into where we think he may be headed for us. And I think that's a very good thing because he's certainly been very consistent. |
| Mary | Matthew, one of the things you open up with in this portrait and that comes clearly through in your book is is this idea of bridge building and unity. And you quote Cardinal Dolan, who says it should not startle us, that we are the 14th. We would look to Pope Leo as a as a bridge builder. That's what the word pontiff means. He's a bridge builder. And you highlight the Augustinian concept of unity and harmony and you're so right, because I noticed in his Jubilee homily on the Family, he talked a lot about unity. But tell us a bit more about that and why you saw that as potentially an emerging theme of his new pontificate. |
| Dr. Matthew Bunson | Yeah, well, in some ways it began the minute he walked out on the loggia of Saint Peter's that there was election on May eight. And first he was he was dressed as pontiff, dressed. And this is no criticism. Pope Francis, the pope is style. But Pope Leo immediately sort of established himself in continuity with his predecessors and he spoke the first words out of his mouth in our Lord's proclamation, peace be with you. But then he stressed that it's the peace of the risen Christ, that it's you can only find in a risen Christ. But that itself was sort of a little reference to his own Episcopal motto, the motto that he picked when he became a bishop in 2014. And that is an e unum, which is from Saint Augustine. And it's his commentary on Psalm 127. And when she talks about that in Christ is we are one. So in the one, we are one. And that theme of unity he talked about in his first words as pope, he stressed it again the next day when he was at mass with the cardinals who had just elected him. And he celebrated mass in a chapel. And he has used the word unity. It's used communion. He has talked about the way that we need to be one as a church. He's making that point at a time, certainly when the world seems very fractured, very divided, and certainly it seems to a lot of people that some of those divisions, some of those fractures also exist in the church. We're seeing not just in recent days with the hot discussion surrounding the traditional Latin mass in the diocese of Charlotte, which is one of the items on Pope Leo, a list of tasks ahead of him. So this idea of unity is certainly something that he has stressed, is something that I think he recognizes is needed at this moment and his ability rooted in the Augustan tradition as he is, but also by temperament and his leadership style is somebody who really is quite good, has proven very effective over the decades in bringing people together, in forming a consensus. It's not a false consensus, it's not unity that's pretend, but actually finding a common way forward. And in this case, it is in Christ. It is elevating our love of Christ and placing Christ the center of everything we do. And I think that's a powerful reminder for the church. |
| Betsy | You talking about unity. But at the same time, you have a very interesting observation in your book and you wrote The new Leo is likely to upset nearly every political and ideological faction at one time or another, just as Leo the 13th did, by asserting the timeless nature of Christian thought, which transcends all our contemporary categories. Can you talk about that and what you see for future and maybe tie in a little bit of Leo the 13th in Rerum Novarum Process? |
| Dr. Matthew Bunson | Yeah, no, it's a really great question and it reminds me and his style reminds me in some ways in these early days of Pope Saint John Paul, the second who once observed that he knew he was doing things right when everyone was mad at that. You can't obviously please everyone. But it's also a question of how you make decisions. And I think he recognizes that at a certain point in his life and his pontificate, he's going to have to make decisions that will be upsetting to different people. What's really fascinating about his style, though, is that when he was head of the Augustinians for two terms of 12 years, the head of the whole Augustinian order, and he was traveling all over the globe, it was said that he never had a decision that left someone feeling treated unjustly, that somehow he had done them a great injustice or that he hadn't listened to them. And I think that's going to be one of the hallmarks of this, that, yes, he's going to confound a lot of people. In fact, we saw that almost immediate way when he spoke with the ambassadors who are accredited to the Holy See and inserted a line in there. And I know actually you're paying very close attention to that, and that is that marriage is between a man and a woman. He repeated it again just a few days ago at the Jubilee for Families, that that is a sort of line in the sand that he could have said simply, families are key to civilization and culture. He went there. He was very specific. And you could already see some of the unhappiness on the part of what I sometimes call the usual suspects, certainly secular media, The Guardian and others who took notice of this and expressed alarm. So on that one hand, I think he's going to be very distressing to a lot of people who had their own agenda or their own interpretations of Pope Francis's pontificate, which means they didn't really listen to what Francis was saying. But then at the same time, and here's where Leo the 13th comes in with his focus on the 13th with Catholic social teaching, which I think is going to be one of the most important elements in this new Leonine pontificate, Rerum Novarum, with its analysis of capitalism, of labor and everything else, as it has. All of that, the condemnations of socialism that we have seen in recent social encyclicals, as well as certain critiques of the capitalist system. So I think Leo our Leo the 14th is probably going to irritate some who look at sort of a critique of capitalism from the standpoint of Catholic social teaching and be distressed. Leo However, and this is one of the things that I really find quite striking in these early days is distilling Catholic social teaching to its essence, which is what the 13th did in Rome, Navarre, and that is looking at these massive revolution of the industrial Revolution. And now we are the 14th, these technological revolution, their impact on the dignity of the human person made in the image and likeness of God. And how then, in light of that, do we pursue the common good? And it seems to me that that distillation of Catholic social teaching is something that is going to be confounding to some is going to be a very profound witness in a culture that at times can't even define what a human person is. |
| Mary | Matthew, you mentioned his early days, but I loved the section in your book about his early, early days and his childhood. And you mentioned at the beginning this interview, looking at the influences, influences in his life. I loved the section where you talk about him playing Mass with Necco Wafers on an ironing board. What did you find in your research and writing about his youth? Because it seems like he had a lot of wonderful influences that shaped him into the man that he is today. |
| Dr. Matthew Bunson | To be honest, I think one of the things that I find so remarkable about his childhood is how seemingly ordinary it was within the Catholic culture of the time that there were there's nothing there's nothing there that would that you would scream of. This is truly extraordinary. And yet, out of that seeming ordinariness came a future pope. And the point I'm making is that the beauty of the Catholic family, which is what he was raised in, it is a family of quiet faith. It is a family that lived in the parish, that helped the parish, and dad and mom were active in the altar Rosary Society. He obviously loved being around priests, being around the parish. He felt that call to the priesthood. But it was a setting in which his vocation, because it was clear to his family that he was getting a call to some, to a vocation, to the priesthood, was nurtured. It wasn't discouraged. His parents thought in him and fostered it. They let him make the decision, but they were always there on his mom's side, and she taught them prayers at her three sons that the consistency of living a Catholic life. His dad was there for him when when he was in that Augustinian high school, he was wondering, is this actually what I'm called to do? But his dad was there for him at that moment, too. So it's the way that the Catholic family and I think this is something that Leo was talking about just the other day, too, when he was speaking at the Jubilee. A family, you could tell that this was a lived experience on his part about the nurturing environment of a family. And then how we deal with today with the many distortions of that family. But for Leo, I think that simplicity, deceptive simplicity of the Catholic faith in his youth really set him on a course that I consider that along with the Augustinian tradition, to be one of the greatest influences. On his early days. |
| Betsy | We're talking with Dr. Matthew Benson about his new book, Hot Off the Press Leave the 14th Portrait of the First American Pope, published by EWTN Publishers. Dr. Bunsen, when you talk about his youth, then it seems to me that there's there's three places that you keep jumping around in the book. There's Rome, there's Chicago, and there's Peru. |
| Dr. Matthew Bunson | Yes. |
| Betsy | And you talk about sort of the collapse of the church that he had grown up in, in Chicago. Tell us about the church in Peru. Was that dramatically different in terms of the, you know, the vibrancy of the Catholic faith than the Chicago of the eighties and nineties? |
| Dr. Matthew Bunson | Yeah, well, in some ways it depends on where in Peru you're talking and what is really quite remarkable to my mind is how Robert Francis proposed to recently ordained ordained in 1982 was sent off to the missions studies canon law in Rome. But then, I mean, they send him to the missions very quickly, but in his time at the priests. So how jarring that was. But how remarkably adaptive he was as a personality. And that's one of the hallmarks of a great missionary. Be able to find yourself like Francis Xavier did in a host of different settings, environments, cultures, languages and everything else, and then not just adapt and then to thrive as he did. So for him, it's very clear that he was able to adapt very quickly to some of those rugged of the mission environments that you can have. You have the Peruvian missions themselves where you still had many indigenous peoples, you still had, and to this day you still have immense poverty, immense geographical challenges, immense cultural challenges, and yet he he thrived in that setting. But then he was also in the cities, his capacity as a missionary, as a priest, but then also as an expert in canon law. Having earned that doctorate in canon law from the Anglican 1987, when he completed his dissertation in Rome, made him so valuable in the cities, and the bishops of Peru really prized his capacity as a rector of a seminary, as a teacher, an expert in canon law, as somebody they could turn to. But the one thing that keeps coming back is how very much he loved Peru and how quickly and how efficiently he mastered not just Spanish, not just of the Peruvian flavors of Spanish, but the whole of that culture. And he not just fell in love with it, but he loves it to the point where he was honored as a Peruvian, a naturalized Peruvian citizen, and certainly as a bishop, that it's a requirement. But his ability to love the faith as he has and then to continue to teach. And then in that environment again, to thrive. So it's really quite remarkable. |
| Mary | While, Matthew, we're almost out of time, but I would. He's the first American pope, but lightning round question. Is it correct that he's also the first singing pope? |
| Dr. Matthew Bunson | I'm guessing there have been some or very good singers over over the centuries. But he's a surprising thing. But I think the if at some point we have a documentation of a pope's Regina José and so far I haven't been able to find one. And then Pope John Paul, the second, who had a magnificent singing voice. I think Leo's got it. Got him beat a little bit because I cannot recall John Paul the second singing the Regina José. So, yeah, I think you're right. He's also somebody who looked at it as a kid in college, also played the guitar. He loves singing, so I think he's going to be full of more surprises in the years to come. |
| Betsy | And I saw today on social media he's signing baseballs. |
| Mary | Yeah, I sent that to my baseball husband, a friend. |
| Dr. Matthew Bunson | And that ability to catch crushes is also very impressive. |
| Mary | Well, we are so grateful for your time, and we're grateful your wonderful new book, which is a highly enjoyable read for anybody looking to find out more about our new Holy Father and this exciting moment for the American church, Where can our listeners buy your book? |
| Dr. Matthew Bunson | Well, thank you so much. It's a real privilege to be with you, and I hope you'll have me back sometime. I'd love to come back. You can go to Amazon.com and you can also go to EWTN dot com religious catalog, and it's available in both of those places. |
| Mary | All right. Well, thank you, Dr. Matthew Brunson, for your time. Thank you so much. |
| Dr. Matthew Bunson | Thank you. Great to be with you. |
| Betsy | Welcome to Conversations with Consequences on EWTN Radio. I'm your host is Betsy Fentress, and we're happy to have once again Monsignor Roger Landry with us, a member of our TCA team who joins us each and every week so we can learn more about his position as national director of the Pontifical Mission Societies of the U.S. And today, we're also going to catch up on a big anniversary taking place this year, the 17 hundredth anniversary of the Council of Nicaea. Welcome, Monsignor, and tell us why this is important. |
| Msgr Landry | Great to be back with you, Betsy. Every Sunday and every solemnity we profess the Nicene Courts in the Politan creed, which puts in one place the symbol that was called the creed given to us by the fathers of the early church in the first technical Council to fight against the heresy at the time that a priest from Alexandria, Egypt, named Arius, was propagating, which was Jesus wasn't God. Jesus was the greatest creature of all time, but he wasn't God from God. Light from light, true God from true God. And so Constantine, the Emperor, got 318 of the early fourth century bishops together, only 12 years after he legalized Christianity to fix this theological mess, which was destabilizing the Roman Empire. And so at the end of basically a three month council, the church gave us this creed and definitely said that Arius was wrong, that Jesus is 100% man and 100% God, that he was eventually, as would be defined, a divine person with a fully human nature, and that when we worship the Lord Jesus, we are worshiping God himself. And so it's an extraordinary gift to us that 1700 years later, we might take for granted, because we're not living at a time in which false ideas about Jesus are fighting words that are going to destabilize an empire, but they're just as true. And so this year of the Nicene Creed is an opportunity for us to celebrate Jesus divinity and celebrate the gift of the creed that we profess to help make us one just as God. The Father, God, the Sun and God, the Holy Spirit of one in the Blessed Trinity. |
| Betsy | Now, do other Christian denominations profess the Nicene Creed? |
| Msgr Landry | Yes. So the Orthodox? Absolutely profess a creed together with us. There's one issue that goes back to the eighth century about whether the Holy Spirit comes from the Father in the Son of the Holy Spirit comes from the Father through the Son. We won't get into that here, but they profess it. The Episcopalian slash, Anglican profess said the Methodists in general profess said most believe all 12 of those articles of the Creed, whether they profess it or not. Again, the Nicene Creed doesn't summarize everything we believe. It doesn't talk about the Christian moral life, doesn't talk about six of the seven sacraments. It obviously talks about baptism, but it is something that all Bible believing Christians affirm, and it's a starter for that communion that Jesus wants from the church. We believe one thing together, especially about God, the Father, God, the Son and God, the Holy Spirit and the church that is meant to be the representation of their communion. |
| Betsy | So you had a piece on the Nicene Creed in the National Catholic Register, and you have five points for celebrating this milestone. Can you walk us through those once a year? |
| Msgr Landry | Sure. So like the first thing that I think we need to do is to look at the way that we professed our faith on Sunday. Sometimes I just being a priest celebrating mass in parishes on Sunday, a lot of people mumble through the creed. They don't really think about what they're saying. They go very fast, etc. I just think first and foremost, we need to slow down and really pray the creed that we say with a sense of joy. Over the course of centuries, many Christians have sung the creed, and I asked in that article, Would it be a good time for us to start to sing it? Because, as Saint Augustine quipped in the fourth century quiz, Bennett Cantata or not, the one who sings well prays twice. The second is to study the creed. And there are two sort of recommendations that I gave. The first is if you get the first part of the catechism of the Catholic Church, it's all based in the 12 Articles of the Creed. Exactly. Yeah. It's a great place for us to say, okay, what am I affirming and what am I explicitly rejecting when I profess what I do on Sunday? And likewise, a couple of months ago, the the international theological Commission, which works with de Castro for the doctrine of the faith in the Vatican, put together a lengthy study of the importance of the creed and what it means within an ecumenical context for people who want more. That's obviously a place to go. But for us to get to know what we're saying much better. The third is to start to speak with clarity about what we affirm there, to share it with others, like when we're passing on our faith to our young people, we're teaching them more about how to memorize the creed, the way we might hope that they'll memorize the Our father, the Hail Mary, the Glory be the Hail, Holy Queen, you name our other prayers. But to pass it on with clarity about what we're really saying with regard in the Council of Nicaea to Jesus Divinity. The fourth is obviously to try to live the creed so that we're staking our life on what we're professing, that the first Christians couldn't be baptized until they were ready to be martyred. Thanks be to God, most places, that's not hanging over our head by the very fact that we're a Christian in Nigeria and some other places it is, but not in the U.S. But for us to just. Okay, what does it mean to say, I believe in God, the father? Do I really have a relationship with God? The father, as we approach Pentecost this Sunday, do I really have relationship with the Holy Spirit? Is the Lord and giver not just of life in general, but of my life Who has spoken to the prophets? Why can't he speak through me? Sort of live the creed And the last is sort of the most ambitious proposal, which shouldn't be, but to try to have some Nicaea 1700 parties. |
| Betsy | I thought I loved that. |
| Msgr Landry | If we're really celebrating this important 17 hundredth anniversary, why don't we throw a party? I can almost guarantee that if we were to invite our friends, they would never have gotten another invitation to a Nicaea 1700 party. And so just for that reason alone, they might be interested in coming in. This is something that we can celebrate not just with our fellow Catholics, but likewise the Orthodox that we know around Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Ukrainian Orthodox, you name it. Similarly, most of our Protestant brothers and sisters to be able to come and it's a first step to our living a new that harmony that was one at a precious price 17 centuries ago. |
| Betsy | Well, that's a great list of things for us to aspire to. And thank you so much for joining us. To learn more about Monsignor Roger Landry, please visit Catholic peak CNN.com and to learn more about the Catholic Association, visit us at Catholic Association Board. Thanks, Father Landry. |
| Msgr Landry | Happy 17 anniversary. Next. |