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Episode Description
As Catholic faithful across the country were concerned about pro-abortion politician Sen. Dick Durbin receiving a Lifetime Achievement Award from the Archdiocese of Chicago, Bishop Thomas Paprocki of Springfield joined to discuss why he spoke out against giving the award. We also talk with Mary Kate Zander of Illinois Right to Life about the longstanding relationship the pro-life organization has had with the archdiocese.
Gia Chacón also joins, discussing her amazing work across the globe with For the Martyrs, plus one of the gravest concerns over the future of AI: the targeting of Christians and the persecuted Church. China’s deployment of the technology against its Uyghur population raises concerns over facial recognition tools being used to monitor Christian populations worldwide.
Msgr. Roger Landry also marks the feast day of St. Vincent de Paul, the “Apostle of Charity” known for his dedication to serving the poor.
Catch the show every Saturday at 7amET/5pmET on EWTN radio!
Bios
Bishop Thomas Paprocki is the bishop of the diocese of Springfield, Illinois, appointed in 2010 by Pope Benedict XVI. A native of Chicago, he was ordained to the priesthood in 1978. A civil and canon lawyer, he studied law at DePaul University College of Law and was admitted to the Bar in 1981. In 2003 he was appointed Auxiliary Bishop of Chicago by Pope John Paul II. He founded the South Chicago Legal Clinic to serve the legal needs of the poor, and in 2014 became President Emeritus for the organization now called the Greater Chicago Legal Clinic. He studied Polish in Krakow, which he later used to serve a large immigrant population on Chicago’s northwest side. He received his MBA from the University of Notre Dame and taught as an adjunct professor of law at Loyola University’s Chicago School of Law. He is an Adjunct Professor of Law, Business, and Bioethics at Quincy University’s Oakley School of Business, and an Adjunct Professor of Law for Ave Maria School of Law in Naples, Florida. He is chairman of the Committee on Canonical Affairs and Church Governance for the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.
Mary Kate Zander is the president of Illinois Right to Life. She is a communications and non-profit strategist, specializing in written communications, public speaking, and brand building. She is active in the pro-life movement and has served as communications advisor on numerous state and federal political campaigns. She has been quoted in the Chicago Tribune, Chicago Sun-Times, the New Yorker, and the Washington Post, and appeared on WGN, EWTN, Fox News, and other media outlets. She’s spoken before thousands on the need for abortion restrictions in Illinois and presented to students at Northwestern University and the University of Chicago. She serves on the Board of the John Paul II Newman Center. She and her husband reside in Illinois with their two children.
Gia Chacón is a humanitarian, motivational speaker, and founder of For the Martyrs and March for the Martyrs, an advocacy organization and leading voice for persecuted Christians across the world. She has worked extensively in the Middle East to advocate for religious freedom and human dignity. Since starting her humanitarian work in 2017, she has also traveled to Central America and East Africa to document religious persecution and identify the needs of the suffering. She is a published writer, and has been featured in news articles, on television, and radio shows. She is a member of the Board of Advisors for the Catholic Connect Foundation. She reaches thousands daily to impact culture through her social media outreach, @genuinelygia. She resides in Newport Beach, California.
Monsignor Roger Landry is a priest of the Diocese of Fall River, Massachusetts. A graduate of Harvard and the Pontifical North American College in Rome, he served as Attaché to the Holy See’s Permanent Observer Mission to the UN in New York. In 2024, he was appointed the new National Director of the Pontifical Mission Societies in the USA by Pope Francis. He writes for numerous publications, speaks on radio and TV, and served as executive editor for the weekly newspaper of the Diocese of Fall River. He is the author of the book, Plan of Life: Habits to Help You Grow Closer to God, and he leads pilgrimages to Rome, the Holy Land, and other sacred destinations. He was an on-site commentator for EWTN’s coverage of the 2013 papal conclave that elected Pope Francis. He is national chaplain for Catholic Voices USA and New York Chaplain for the Leonine Forum. Father Landry traversed the full 1500-mile Eucharist Pilgrimage in 2024, an event which coincided with his 25th year in the priesthood.
The following transcript is machine generated.
Episode 336 Transcript
| Ashley | Welcome to conversations with consequences on EWTN radio. On your host is Ashley McGuire. |
| Betsy | And I'm Betsy Fentress. |
| Ashley | And we are very blessed to have with us and honored to have with us Bishop Thomas Paprocki. He is the Bishop of the Diocese of Springfield, Illinois, and he is here to talk with us about many things. Welcome to the show, Your Excellency. |
| Bishop Thomas Paprocki | Thank you. Great to be with you. |
| Ashley | Your Excellency, your home state, Senator Dick Durbin, is, very much in the news right now because of an award that he is receiving. And this award is a lifetime achievement award. It's causing quite a bit of confusion for Catholics right now because, he is a man who has a lifetime of dedication in his political office to advocating for and supporting abortion in all stages. This award that's been given out by the Archdiocese of Chicago, very much violates its own stated policy, which I thought I would read briefly here, which says that any Catholic entity subject to the authority of the Archbishop of Chicago and any boards fundraising committees affiliated with them, shall not give awards or honors or host presentations, speaking opportunities or appearances by individuals or organizations whose public position is in opposition to the fundamental moral principles of the Catholic Church. So, Bishop, could you kindly give some clarity, to us and to the faithful on this issue? |
| Bishop Thomas Paprocki | Yeah. So first of all, I'd like to say that I did, communicate privately with Cardinal Selfish about this. When I first heard the news, I heard about it through the media last, last Friday. And so I emailed him on Friday morning and got a response Friday afternoon. And, to which I replied, Friday night we had an exchange on this, and I, I asked him, please reconsider this. That this is contrary not only to the policy, that you just, read, but it's also, contrary to the, the norms of the, the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops that we we adopted a policy, nationally back in 2004. And, and our statement on Catholics in political life, which says the Catholic community and Catholic institutions should not honor those who act in defiance of our fundamental moral principles. They should not be given award, honors or platforms which would suggest support for their actions. So, we basically, made clear that he was going to go ahead, with this, giving lifetime achievement award to Senator Durbin. So, I felt and I told him, I said I would have to say something publicly at this went forward because Senator Durbin made things, his home here with Springfield. Them and I regard I am the only, bishop from the ICC. So I did make some public statements about this. And, again, I'm calling for, for the archdiocese, which to go to Washington with the board because after eating out, you will be awarding someone and honoring someone who's so consistently pro-abortion. |
| Betsy | My understanding is that when you were the chancellor of the Archdiocese of Chicago, you were actually involved in the writing of the policy, which appears to be being violated. Did you write that because this had been an issue in the past in the Archdiocese of Chicago? |
| Bishop Thomas Paprocki | Well, I was councilor from 1982 to 19 to 2000, basically. And, it's an issue. We went and the policy books that we. Yeah, over that eight year period, I was working on writing, a lot of policy for the Archdiocese of Chicago that, that relate to the code of kind of law, which guides the church throughout the world. And so there's the part there's two, norms in kind of law about who should receive communion or not receive communion, and the circumstance of what a person should not be receiving Holy Communion. And, that's an issue that later came, to the fore with, with Senator Durbin. And for me, in 2004 here in Springfield before I was here, but in Chicago. Yeah. The issue would come up from time to time, but it preceded anything that had to do with with Senator Durbin. So what I was referring to in 2004 was when, the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops issued that policy that I, I just read to you and, his pastor at the time here in, Springfield, that was in Sacrament Parish, was that Monsignor Kevin Van, who is now Bishop Kevin Van of Orange, California. And, after that, Monsignor Van told the central government that you should not be receiving Holy Communion. Because of a consistent, pro-abortion stance. And, that goes back to 2004. My predecessor was the bishop at the time being George Lucas, who is now Archbishop of America, Omaha. So when I came in in 2010, I was appointed bishop. Bishop here. That was something I inherited. So when people ask me about that, because, again, you've been very open and persistent in, promoting abortion rights, people ask me about that. I said, well, you've not been allowed to receive communion here in the times before 2004. And, and. All right, I said the position hasn't changed, so there's no reason for me to change that, that decision. And so that is continue here to this day. And it's my understanding that he did not forgo communion here in this diocese back with, but he does. And, you know, parishes outside of Chicago. |
| Ashley | My understanding is the award is being given to him for his work on, immigration. But you explain in an article that you recently wrote for First Things that a policymakers, work cannot be treated in isolation of their position on all of these important issues. Can you explain a little bit more to people who who truly are confused, why it's still not acceptable just because he's done good work on immigration to give an award to someone who's also in a different part of his political work advocating for abortion? |
| Bishop Thomas Paprocki | Yes. Well, for one thing, the award, being called a lifetime achievement award. So that means implying that it's not just on the immigration issue. It's looking that, that the whole sum total of the things that he's done in his career in government, in politics, and, in that regard, that's even more, the reason that it's not appropriate because, okay, this, persistence and, promoting abortion. And in that regard, I think it's, it's more important to, call to mind, the consistent ethic, of life that was very prominent, in the teachings of Joseph Cardinal Bernardin, who was the archbishop Hagen. He's the one that appointed me to be chancellor of the Archdiocese of Chicago. And, in 1992, I served as his chancellor, very faithfully, until he died. And, so I heard him speak quite frequently on being consistent out there. And, there was an interview that was published in the National Catholic Register in 1988, in which, Cardinal Bernardin was, was asked, about, about the consistent aspect of especially with regard to, candidates for office and, I don't promote abortion. And so the very first question in that interview, Cardinal Bernard was asked if Catholic voters should disqualify candidates who don't support a human life amendment. And Cardinal Bernardin answered, well, certainly that's what the consistent like ethic is all about. We're very clear on that. And then later in the same interview, Cardinal Bernadine said, and I quote, I know that some people on the left, if I may use that label, have used the consistent ethic to give the impression that the abortion issue is not all that important anymore, that we should be against abortion in a general way, but that there are more important issues that don't hold anybody to speak to the choir on abortion. That's a misuse of the consistent ethic and for glory. And to quote the very strong statement and, saying that, you should, you should you should not ignore abortion again. And when you're writing a consistent ethic of life, I mean, to do that would be I would I'd make the comparison to be like saying someone's a good Catholic because he or she, post nine out of the Ten Commandments. Except for that one, the Fifth Amendment that thou shalt not kill, but nine out of ten. So that's not bad. So that person is a good Catholic and I think that's pretty obvious example of how, you know, that kind of thinking just, doesn't work. |
| Betsy | Bishop Patrick, you also said in that same first things article, quote and I quote you because this decision threatens to scandalize the faithful and injure the bonds of ecclesial communion, it should be reversed. Explain to us what you meant by that. |
| Bishop Thomas Paprocki | Yes. I think it's very important to understand, what the going to say. The popular meaning and the and the technical meaning of the word scandal. I think when a lot of times when we hear the word scandal, we think of something that's shocking. And it is scandalous in that regard. In fact, I start my statement by saying I was shocked to hear the news that the archdiocese was given this, lifetime achievement award to Senator Durbin. But in a more technical sense, scandal refers to, actions that will lead other people, wrongful actions that will lead other people to think that it's okay to Google. And in that regard, this is scandalous because it basically gives the message to other Catholic politicians and everyone in the sense that you can you can be a good Catholic. You can disagree with the church on matters of abortion, but that's a that's a minor matter. So maybe, it doesn't really matter. And so, I think that will give, a lot of politicians great ammunition to think like, that's okay if I'm pro-abortion because, well, look, better than girls getting an award from the Catholic Church, so it must be okay. And in that regard, this battle. |
| Ashley | This is coming at an interesting time because we have a new Holy Father, and, unity is something he's very much stressed. It's it's in his crest. It was mentioned multiple times. And his first words out in the loggia. And there's absolutely no question that, this award is causing this unity. It's, it's it's inflaming tensions and divisions. And so I think another question a lot of Catholics are asking is, with a new with a new pope. And I, I'm asking this because I noticed that in the in the defense of the award, there was a discussion about, dialog. And it seems like sometimes, we're conflating dialog with, especially in this case, outright endorsement. So I guess this is a long winded question, but do you have any thoughts on how do we achieve unity within the church on this issue? |
| Bishop Thomas Paprocki | Yeah. So I think in that regard, some, some people might think because I said something, to criticize this, that, that I'm the one that's creating this uniform. And, in that regard, Pope Leo, and recently in, in a talk, he said that, unity is not, contrary to the truth, that with that truth, we have to speak the truth, and we shouldn't be silent because, well, we want to give. That would be a false sense of unity. We don't say anything. So, in that regard, I think it would be a mistake to say, well, I don't want to appear to be, disruptive, or to show that one bishop is against another by saying something. And that would just compound the problem that all the bishops remain silent while a fellow bishop is doing something that is contrary to church teaching. I think we have an obligation, to speak out in that regard. And so that so what's disruptive of unity is not speaking out against something that's wrong. It's the wrong collection in the first place. And the unity comes about when that wrongful action were corrected and then we, we do all all together. Then you have to do with what the community. |
| Betsy | So it seems to me that there are two issues here. One which is the the scandal created by giving award to this person who has a 100% positive rating from Planned Parenthood, which means voted consistently, against pro-life measures. And then the second issue is Catholics watching our hierarchy come to grips with not agreeing. And is this something that you will talk about when you have your bishops meeting your United States contra for Catholic bishops, how do you think about going forward, how this might foster conversation in one of your meetings? |
| Bishop Thomas Paprocki | Yeah, so I've already been in communication with some other, bishops. And, I'm pleased that Archbishop, Salvador reportedly only issued a strong statement in support, of what I said, Bishop James Comey, making Nebraska has also been supportive. I think other bishops will will be speaking out. And I think that's important. This is not a personal issue between, bishop of property and cardinal. Who's that? This is, a national matter because, as we said earlier this week, the policy of the United States competent Catholic bishops. So I think that it is something that we should talk about, what happens when we have a very clear policy and someone violates that? We spend a lot of time working on statements and policies and, making sure that we agree on the wording and we get them all correct. And then if we do all that, we publish these policies, and then they're ignored. What are the consequences for that? So I think that's something we have to talk about. |
| Ashley | Well, we only have a few minutes left. I'd love to end on a positive note, and. Well, first of all, thank you for your your courage and your clarity on this issue. I'm a convert, and it certainly is clarity and truth that helped bring me into the church. And I think we're seeing a trend with that nationwide. There's been a lot of buzz about an uptick in mass attendance, an uptick in people joining our CIA classes. From your perspective, do you see a sort of, religious revival, maybe not a major, you know, not with a capital R, but but, a growing return to faith and orthodoxy, especially among, American Catholic youth. |
| Bishop Thomas Paprocki | Yes, I do, I, I think that I've seen that, developing recently. Last year, for example, during lent, one of the steps, along the way to, having the, baptism confirmation in the Eucharist for new Catholics at the Easter Vigil on Holy Saturday, the day before Easter is what's called the rite of election. And, last year we had the largest group and the rite of election in my 15 years as bishop. I've also heard that some other bishops from around the country. So there's something that that's happening here. I think. I think, the young people in particular are looking at a lot of the chaos in the world around them and saying that this is the time, right? There has to be something more that we're looking for, there to be birth within the soul of every human being that ultimately lead us to God. And, thanks be to God. I think a lot of young people, and I know the older folks, as well, perhaps some folks that have been, agnostic all their lives or maybe even atheist are asking questions about what is the meaning of life. Where do I find meaning and are are realizing that ultimately our meaning in life, our meaning for existence and the way we we live our lives is found in Jesus Christ, who was, we say, the Prince of Peace. The question now is that if we want, a world where people can live in peace and harmony, well, then we should be followers of Jesus and and live the way Jesus asked of the world. |
| Ashley | One last question. What was your reaction to learning that our new Holy Father is from your state? |
| Bishop Thomas Paprocki | Well, I was first of all surprised. I wasn't expecting that. And, also, many people have asked me if I if I know him, we we have met in passing, in the past, but, although we're both from the south side of Chicago, we took very different paths. But we entered the Augustinian, community and went to their high school seminary in Michigan. And I entered the archdiocese, which provides for Mary Ogle. And then as a priest, he went to America and served in Peru as a priest and as a bishop, while I served mainly in the archdiocese, which I was. So I am looking forward at some point. As the meeting having meaning Bishop and hope together and conversation with them. But I'm, very happy to see, the election and hopefully, I wish them all the best and, and keep them in our prayers to for our blessings on job in hotel. |
| Ashley | Absolutely. Well, Bishop. We're so incredibly grateful for you, for your commitment to the sanctity of human life in a culture that does not appreciate it. For your courage and commitment to the truth and for your service to the church. So we thank you so much for joining us today. And to learn more about Bishop Thomas John Piper of the Diocese of Springfield, please visit deo.org and to read His Excellency's latest article on the award, please visit First things.com and to learn more about us, please visit the Catholic association.org to follow everything we do in radio, TV, print, online, in our and in our local communities. Your Excellency, thank you so much for joining us today. |
| Bishop Thomas Paprocki | You're welcome. God bless you. |
| Betsy | Thank you. Welcome to conversations with consequences on EWTN radio. I'm Betty Fentress, and we have with us today Mary Kate Zander, who is president of Illinois Right to Life. And Mary Kate, we've all been reacting to this. Once again, Chicago centric Catholic news, we had the positive, wonderful news about a pope from Chicago. But this is a really disappointing turn of events with the awarding award, awarding by the Archdiocese of Chicago and a lifetime achievement award for Senator Dick Durbin. How is the Illinois Right to Life Movement responding to this announcement? |
| Ashley | Yeah. I thank you so much for having me, I appreciate it. You know, this was obviously a major shock to us to hear this news. It is not new information that Senator Durbin has opposed pro-life principles over the past, you know, 20, 30 years now of his career. And we're not just talking middle of the road or. I'm sorry, we're not even talking extreme pro-life. You know, banning abortion. We're talking. He voted against the partial birth abortion ban in Washington. So this is an individual who has just a he has objectively set himself apart from our Catholic, pro-life values. And yet he himself is a professed Catholic. So this is a very concerning issue for us for sure. Absolutely. |
| Betsy | So how do you respond and what is your take going to be? Are you having any kind of protests? Are you writing, doing a letter writing and emailing campaign? How are you going forward to, you know, lead with with love? As a fellow Catholic, but to clearly, admonish Senator Durbin for his position? |
| Ashley | You know, our I'll walk you through our process with this. Our very first step was to actually, reach out to the Cardinals office directly and ask, we asked to have a conversation about this. We were not granted that conversation. And from there, we felt it's our responsibility as a pro-life organization in the state, a pro-life leader in the state to take this to the public, to make this known to the public that this award was being presented. So that's what we did. So we, put our statement out to the media, out to the public. We have had just a sweeping response from pro-life Catholics across the state. So many people have called the archdiocese. So many people have reached out to us, have reached out to the cardinal, have also reached out to Saint Ignatius College Prep, which is the venue for this event. So they've received a lot of communications on this topic as well. And then, you know, once we saw that, that the Cardinal was not taking fast steps to remedy the situation, we decided, okay, we are going to come to the event and host a peaceful protest to continue to communicate this message that we do not support this, this choice, you know, and our concern is, I mean, obviously, the whole thing is concerning. I think what really stings for us is the added piece of this award is coming from the Office of Human Dignity in the archdiocese, and that's one of the pieces here that for us, just really feels like salt in the wound that we are okay. Right. Let's acknowledge immigration, social justice, what needs to be done to support migrants in our country. But holy smokes, we cannot forgive my forgive the pun, but we can't throw the baby out with the bathwater on this. We cannot ignore the evil action that Senator Durbin has taken when it comes to the issue of abortion in Washington. So that's really the steps that we've taken. So now we do intend to protest this event. |
| Betsy | Do you work with the archdiocese? From time to time on pro-life initiatives? |
| Ashley | Oh, absolutely. We have worked very closely with our office over many, many years. You know, we work very closely with the Catholic Conference. The executive director of the State Catholic Conference is a deeply pro-life man, and he's a very good friend of our organization. We've always worked very closely with the Respect Life Office. They have seen a change in leadership recently, and I do not know how these decisions were made. I don't know the new director of that office, so I certainly don't want to put all of this on him. But I do think that there were clearly some questions, you know, being generous, there were clearly some questions that weren't asked when they chose, Senator Durbin to present this award. So that's really what we're hoping to bring awareness to even, you know, just for their office that did you know that this is the individual that was chosen for this award? So that's very important to us. |
| Betsy | So my understanding is that not only is Senator Durbin a practicing Catholic, but that he actually, in his political career, has flipped his allegiance to the pro-life movement. Can you talk a little bit about that? |
| Ashley | Absolutely. You know, when I think this point you raise is one of the things that is particularly harmful to us as a pro-life movement in the state of Illinois. We have just experienced, frankly, a lot of betrayals by some of our conservative Catholic politicians or, you know, in quotes, conservative Catholic politicians over the years. Senator Durbin is one of the politicians who, when he began his political career, was a self-professed pro-life person. And then he very publicly cast those pro-life convictions aside when he decided to run for the US Senate. So this is not, you know, we can't seem ignorance on this. He knows what the abortion issue, what this political issue is all about. And he has still made the choice to align himself with people in Washington, people in Springfield who oppose life for our most vulnerable. I mean, how can we possibly honor someone with a lifetime achievement award when in their lifetime they have so explicitly cast aside the life issue, you know, so that's that's really harmful to us. And it's one of the reasons why we have pursued this issue so strongly is we need I mean, my gosh, our state has a national reputation for corruption and bad politics. We need good conservative Catholic people in this state who are willing to stand up for life. And, that and we need to hold those accountable when they when they don't. So that's that's where we're at for sure. |
| Betsy | Well, Mary Kate Zander, thank you so much for joining us. And to learn more about Mary Kate and the Illinois Right to Life movement, please visit Illinois Right to Life, Dawg. And to learn more about us, please visit the Catholic association.org and follow everything we do radio, TV, print and social media. Thank you so much for joining us. |
| Ashley | Thank you I appreciate it. |
| Betsy | We like to take a moment to thank all of our loyal listeners who tune in each week to conversations with consequences. As you all know, the Catholic Association is everywhere. We were on TV to cover the conclave and the election of the new Pope. We're in print, we're online, and we're on social media. And we'd love for you to join us in our continuing Catholic conversations. Welcome to conversations with consequences on EWTN radio. I'm Betty Fentress, and I'm delighted to have back with us today a voice known to many, Gia Chacon, who has really spearheaded a movement to protect persecuted Christians around the world. It's called the March for martyrs. And thank you for taking time to join us today. |
| Gia Chacón | Thank you so much for having me. And thank you for giving a platform to the plight of persecuted Christians around the world. |
| Betsy | So you're the founder for the March for martyrs and the leading voice for really persecuted Christians worldwide. And you worked extensively on the ground and across the middle East, advocating for religious freedom and human dignity and providing direct support for communities suffering for their faith. Can you tell us what inspired you to start your organization? |
| Gia Chacón | Yes. So I actually have my grandmother to thank. My grandmother has been working in international crisis relief for over 40 years. I love sharing this. It's so incredible. She was actually a coworker of the missionaries of Charity with Mother Teresa. And it was really inspired by, in part by Mother Teresa's, lifting up of human dignity and serving the most vulnerable and the most oppressed that inspired my grandmother's work. So inspired by her and her life, she. I grew up always talking to her and listening to her stories of her travels around the world, including with the persecuted church. She actually smuggled Bibles into communist China with an organization called Open Doors USA in the 80s, if you can believe it. And I began traveling with her in 2017, and a lot of the work that she was doing at the time was to the persecuted church, and specifically she was working at that time extensively with Iraqi and Syrian refugees who had suffered directly under ISIS. So my exposure to the persecuted church began in Egypt. And when I heard the stories of what Christians were suffering, and it wasn't just the older generations that were so on fire for their faith and willing to lay down their life. But it was people my age and even younger, who had this radical faith, willing to put their life on the line. And, many in their community had been martyred. That started my heart for the persecuted. And then in 2018, I had the opportunity to work with my grandmother's organization, with Iraqi and Syrian refugees and hearing the stories of Christians who suffered directly under ISIS. I immediately knew when I sat with those Christians that this is what I want my life to be dedicated to, to serving these Christians and to raising awareness. Because as I, began working with the persecuted Christians and telling their stories, I realized that so many in the West had no idea that it was happening at all, let alone the scale of persecution. So in December 2019, I founded the March for the martyrs. |
| Betsy | That's really an amazing story. You just recently pointed out in a now viral social media post, real threats that artificial communication and intelligence poses on religious freedom. Tell us about that post. And it's particularly the responses that you have received to it. |
| Gia Chacón | Yeah. So I really have been using my platform to talk about these issues and to raise awareness. So through my Instagram, Twitter and then our organizations Instagram and Twitter, we reach over 2 million individual accounts monthly. So we are always sharing statistics and stories from the persecuted church. But one facet of persecution that is really not talked about enough, but is probably the most sinister and dangerous upcoming threat to the persecuted church is the future of AI and how it is already beginning to be used to persecute Christians. So when we shared what is really going on, which I know we will get into, the response was, first of all, people were so glad that their eyes were were opened to the reality of how these technologies can be used. But again, so many people were unaware that these, that AI technology was being weaponized against the church. |
| Betsy | Well, there's kind of multifaceted to this, that I understand you going into one is what happens when people use computers or their phones and type in certain words. And then the other facet is cameras. Let's first talk about the cameras that are being placed near houses of worship and the the way they can destroy people's lives and freedom. |
| Gia Chacón | Absolutely. So China is the number one offender of utilizing AI and tracking facial recognition to persecute Christians. And how they are doing. This is, as you said, they're putting cameras outside of churches, inside of churches. And they are monitoring everything that's being said online. So what this means is if you are a Christian and you are attending church, they are tracking you. They're placing which church you're going to, what is being said inside that church. If you are a pastor or a priest, everything that you preach has to be approved by the Chinese Communist Party. And, not only are they using the cameras to track who's going in and out, but they're also listening. What is being said, what is being talked about. And this surveillance absolutely extends online. So there was one instance in particular, that really sheds light on how extensive the online tracking is for the Chinese Communist Party against Christians. And there was a group of evangelical Christians who were typing in a WeChat group chat, which is China's, social media platform. And when they were typing in Christ, it was flagged as explicit content in the same way that adult content would be flagged or violence. So in order to be able to, type in the word Christ, let's say they actually had to change some of the letters, for example, putting an exclamation point in place of the eye in the word Christ. So not only is it being censored when they type it and being flagged as explicit content, China is also tracking who is typing in these words. What group chats are you affiliated with? What is being said inside of the group chats? Is it just talking about Christianity? Is it the Chinese approved version of Christianity? Because in the last couple of years we actually had the Chinese Communist Party, dictate now even what is allowed to be written about in the Bible. And in some provinces of China, they actually changed, the stories of the gospel to align with a communist agenda. So in doing this, yes, in doing this, what they are doing is they're not just monitoring it, but they're giving Christians a social credit score. And if you get too many dings on your social credit score, or let's say you go into the red zone category of things that are against the communist regime, that can mean that you're imprisoned. It can mean that your water will be shut off, your electricity will be shut off. We've had reports of, authorities coming into homes and, even removing crosses inside Christian homes. So it's very dangerous. And another thing that's happening is China is actually exporting these AI capabilities to other countries. |
| Betsy | I want to point out that a lot of this is rendered so beautifully in this piece that you have in the National Catholic Register. Here's how AI is being used to persecute Christians. And what's even worse, besides just typing the word in Christ is that it was Thomas, a campus's book, The Imitation of Christ, that someone was trying to recommend, which which flagged these people's, you know, the Chinese attention. I also wanted to talk about this very sophisticated platform, integrated Joint Operation system, which aggregates biometric data, travel history and communications. That sounds really scary. |
| Gia Chacón | It is. Yes. And they basically, the way that you can begin to understand it is that China is always listening and they're always watching. What are you doing? Where are you going? And what are you talking about? And again, they are monitoring whether or not you are, aligning yourself with the Chinese Communist Party's approved version of Christianity. And, we have already seen that there are hundreds of Christians who are being imprisoned, who are going to prison and then never being heard from again by their families. And, it's very dangerous. And we're seeing that it's only going to continue to get worse. |
| Betsy | I met a young man recently who was from China, and he told me the story that when he was in college in China, that the police would come and bust up Bible studies, and that his father was a member of the Communist Party and his father said his father basically disowned him for being a Christian. And this man, it's a beautiful story of how someone had been holding a sign that said, Jesus saves or something. And this boy went to his teacher and said, what does that mean? And he didn't. He had never heard the word Jesus. But to have somebody in my kitchen telling me that story just really resonated with the fear and intimidation that these, these people are facing every single day. |
| Gia Chacón | Absolutely. I think in America, it's and in the West in general, it's hard for us to wrap our, our heads around, these restrictions on religious freedom and also to differentiate. Okay. Well, but China allows churches they it's it's actually Christianity is growing in China and it's on track to be the largest, quote unquote, Christian country in the world. So the difference is that China wants to use religion as a means to control their people. So any version of Christianity and really the true gospel and the true versions of Christianity, are seen as a threat to power. So anyone who is outside of the approved versions is seen as a threat to their power. But the Chinese church and the stories that come out from the underground church in China are unbelievably inspiring. And what happens in these countries, believe it or not, and why Christianity is, you know, spreading so rapidly in these countries is because to be a true Christian, to say, I am going to follow the gospel, to give your life to Christ means that you have to be willing to sacrifice, to risk your life, to risk going to prison. So it really, when you are willing to take those risks, it means that you are willing to live a different way. And, to know that your whole life is dedicated to Christ versus these other things in the world that we get caught up in so often in the West. Right. |
| Betsy | And do you actually go to China? Are you persona non grata there? |
| Gia Chacón | I have not been to China at this time. I do not have plans to go to China. Unfortunately. But I have a lot of connections on the ground, and I am, constantly in touch with people who are sending us stories of their families and what's going on. So actually, I have one friend in particular whose father ran a large underground church in China, and he's been imprisoned now for 13 years because he refused to bend his church to the, you know, false gospel that the Chinese Communist Party wanted him to adhere to. |
| Betsy | Have you followed the story of Jimmy Lies and his his imprisonment in Hong Kong and his trial? |
| Gia Chacón | Absolutely, absolutely. We follow it closely and we pray, unfortunately, what we have seen in Hong Kong has been devastating. And we also follow very closely the, what's happening with Cardinals. And, and we're so grateful for the courage and boldness that Cardinals Zen has to, continue to advocate for, specifically Catholics and, freedom of religion in, in China and Hong Kong. |
| Betsy | Want to turn to the rest of the world. But before I do that, I wanted to ask one final question about China and the whole oppression of the Uighurs and who are Muslims that are being I think they're basically concentration camps, if I'm not mistaken. And do you ever partner with organizations that are also fighting for religious freedom? But they're not necessarily Christian organizations? |
| Gia Chacón | Yes we do. So we have been talking actually about the Uyghur Muslims for a number of years now, because we believe that extremism is the enemy to all people of faith. So and actually, the Uyghur Muslims are an excellent example because we first saw this AI targeting and facial recognition and tracking done by China directed at the Uyghur Muslims. And you are correct that at one point there was actually over 2 million Muslims in concentration camps in China, and they were able to, in part execute, execute their targeting of the Uyghur Muslims. Because of this, AI capabilities. So, I'm very proud to say that March for the martyrs is involved in the International Religious Freedom Summit in Washington, DC, where we are engaging with advocacy groups for weaker Muslims. Often we partner with other organizations who are raising awareness about antisemitism and what's happening around the world to Jews and, other religious groups. Again, we believe in religious freedom for all people everywhere. |
| Betsy | So you've written about Iran and and explain how they're using drones and facial recognition in a, a particularly heinous way. |
| Gia Chacón | So Iran, the persecution of Christians is different than it is in China, in the sense that in China we have the, Communist Party who believes all religion is a threat to power in Iran. We, of course, have a radical Muslim regime who, sees Christianity not necessarily as a threat to power. Perhaps some, but really Christians are seen as infidels who are other, so they target Christians using drone methods and fixed cameras, facial recognition software that is in public spaces. It's in the universities they're tracking, especially young people. And initially these systems were used to, track modesty. So in Iran they have what's called the modesty police. And they're looking are the women following the Islamic dress codes. But that same infrastructure is, can be and is being used to track Christians and underground churches and converts to Christianity. It is illegal to convert from Islam to Christianity and Iran and spreading the gospel. Trying to evangelize Muslims is a crime punishable up to the death penalty. |
| Betsy | Wow. So it's amazing that somebody could, you know, you could have a drone up high. And how do they figure out who that person is? |
| Gia Chacón | Well, if you think about what we have in the United States, right. Okay. So, you know, we're so comfortable with Syria, we're so comfortable with our, our, you know, face ID with putting our pictures everywhere on social media and being tagged so well, perhaps we're not actively thinking about is the same way that AI is being used in the United States to track our spending habits, to track the content that we're interested in, to give us the right ads to, you know, build our algorithms. That technology is being twisted and used in a sinister way to target Christians. So, I mean, again, you have your pictures in the digital world that we're living in, it's almost impossible to not have, you know, your pictures online. And so they what they do is they take the pictures and they're able to compare it to their, their own database and then whatever else is on social media and so on and so forth. And, that's how they're able to identify you and track you. And they'll do this to your friends as well. So actually, I have friends who are Iranian here in the United States, and their family members can't even be friends with them on Facebook because the Iranian regime will track what is being said on Facebook accounts. And if you are living in Iran and you have a a family member who is here in the United States and they're saying something against the Iranian regime, talking about evangelizing Muslims, saying, you know, if they are dressed to immodestly, even in some cases, the Iranian regime will target that citizen of Iran for the actions and behavior online of their family member or friends here in the United States or anywhere else in the world. |
| Betsy | That's just so chilling. The Pope has called for a moral architecture for AI and tell us how we go forward. |
| Gia Chacón | I am very happy and, I look so much to Pope Leo for talking about artificial intelligence and, the need for ethical management and framework to be centered on the human person. And really, I'm hoping to see out of the Vatican that that framework is developed, but it's up to not just the Vatican, but all of us as citizens, all of us as faithful Catholics, to, implore our government and implore the Vatican to put those frameworks in place to protect human dignity. And, of course, protect religious freedom around the world. Well, thank. |
| Betsy | You so much for joining us. And to learn more about Julia Chacon and March for martyrs, please visit March for martyrs.com. |
| Gia Chacón | Thank you again. |
| Ashley | Welcome to conversations with consequences here on EWTN radio. I'm your host, us, Ashley McGuire, and I'm joined by our wonderful TCA chaplain, Monsignor Roger Landry. And today we're going to talk a little bit about, a couple of upcoming saints whose feast days are, coming down the pike, the first of which is, Saint Vincent de Paul. And, when I was preparing to talk with you, Monsignor, I was just trying to remind myself of a little Google search of some of the facts of his life. And it was funny because I couldn't find just a bio page because so many Saint Vincent de Paul homes for and charitable services for the poor came up. So we think of him as as truly, a champion for the poor. Tell us, tell us why. Why do we remember him for that? |
| Msgr Landry | Well, it's super important for us as Catholics always to think what the church, the old expression is in Latin. Sentir a com ecclesia. And the church thinks liturgically. And this Saturday, September 27th, we have the, liturgical anniversary of the death and birth into the eternal life of one of the greatest saints of all time, who's made an extraordinary impact on the church in the world. Saint Vincent de Paul, he was a young kid growing on up on a farm in France. He was incredibly ambitious, but also brilliant. And he looked at the church as a career that he could really get ahead and eliminate some of his own familial shame. And so his father sold a couple of cows in order to be able to pay for him to go get a good education with some religious who were running a school. And he continued in seminary, and he went far away from home one day as dad in his farmer's clothes, walked all the way just to see his son, and Vincent de Paul was too embarrassed to come out and, honor his father at all his father's sacrifice. This was the type of ambitious young kid Vincent de Paul was. Well. What happened? He eventually is ordained a priest at the shockingly young age of 19. Even though you're supposed to be 25. He goes to Paris. He's trying to sort of work his way in as a super bright young priest into the social circles of Paris to try to get the money of widows when they die, and everything else. Like this. It was all about worldly things. He went down to Marseilles in order to basically try to cash in on, well, of a deceased woman, and he was captured by some pirates brought into captivity for a couple of years. He had a massive conversion while he was away, and, eventually tried to persuade the ex Christian wife of a muslim man to let go of her Muslim husband and convert, and that was one of the reasons why he was able eventually to escape. But when he came back, he was a changed man. And so he wanted to use his freedom and actually to do good for others rather than for himself. So the first recipient were the slaves and the gallows, all the other pirates who were sort of capturing people. Vincent really worked very hard to free as many as he could, and eventually use some of his connections to become the chaplain of the gallows gallows, so that he would have some care for all those who are at all in this circumstance. The second great thing that happened to him is he was falsely accused of stealing from a roommate, and he just kept saying the sale of every day. God knows the truth. He entrusted himself over to God despite the fact that his reputation was destroyed. And after six months, they found the real culprit who confessed to the crime. And the roommate and everybody else was just so impressed at Vincent Paul's faith. So what happened afterward? He started to care for the missions. He founded the congregation for the mission to evangelize all the farmers throughout France. Second, he recognized that one of the huge problems for the church in France was the bad formation of clergy. They didn't have seminaries even though the Council of Trent insisted upon seminaries. So he used his political connection to say, before anybody is ordained a priest, they've got to do a two week retreat with me. That eventually grew into two years with him and his congregation for the mission, which were the first seminaries in France. And then he went to bishops and he said one of the problems bishops. And so they gave him the capacity to form a council, because the French king would be involved in the appointment of bishops at the time that the king wouldn't appoint without Vincent de Paul's. Okay. And so he had a tremendous impact. But the biggest thing for which he's known is his care for the poor. And so with Saint Louis de Maroc and many of the other women in Paris, he started to care for an incredible 60,000 people a day who were starving in order to just be able to give them the basic, loving support when they were, on the outskirts of Paris society. And that led to the inspiration of people all across the globe to imitate. He wasn't the founder of the Saint Vincent de Paul Society that came about two centuries after, but he was the inspiration for the Saint Vincent de Paul Society so that we would be able to make our real priority caring for those for whom Jesus died. And so that's a little bit of a snapshot. Every time we come to September 27th, we should be praying about the growth of our faith, especially to those who are being poorly formed priests, bishops, and particularly the poor. |
| Ashley | Well, we only have a few minutes left, but I don't want our time to end without also talking about one of my favorite saints, Saint Teresa, LSU, whose feast day is next Wednesday on October 1st. She's known, colloquially as the little flower. Why? |
| Msgr Landry | Because she said that we don't all have to be a rose in God's garden. We know that the roses please God. And what a great smell that they give off. But she said, we can be a petite flower. We can be a little flower. And if the gardener has planted us, we bring him joy too. There's a purpose that not every flower in the garden is a row. Some are tulips, some are carnation center sunflowers, you name it. She was totally content to remain a little flower rather than a great rose, provided that that's what God wanted of her. And so she taught us all her little way to holiness. So we don't have to be one of these great saints written in the books, the ones who do heroic feats, or through whom God works tremendous miracles of healing or exorcism. But we can please God along the way of trust and love. As a little child, entrusting ourselves to God with trust, just like a little kid does to a loving parent, and then a way of love that he has filled us with love and we want to love others. She said that the way to holiness is not climbing up a high mountain. It's actually going down into the valley of humility where God meets us and then lifts us up. She's one of the great saints of all time. She's worked various stupendous miracles in my own life. I'm very happy that I share a great devotion with you. But the one thing I want to emphasize about Saint Teresa's, beyond what we've said is she's a co patroness of the missions of the church. In October, we start World Mission Month, which culminates on October 19th. This year, World Mission Sunday. Why is Saint Torrez, who never left her Carmel in northwest France, a co patron with Saint Francis Xavier of the mission? And the clear reason is because the mission of the church always begins with prayer. Jesus told us to pray to the harvest master for laborers for his harvest in Saint Teresa's inner Carmel with all her other Carmelites, we're praying for the mission of the church. She adopted two young missionaries as her spiritual brothers, and really prayed for them and offered her sufferings for them and for the fruitfulness of their work. And so for those of us who have a devotion to Saint Jurez, it's important that we share her great love and care for the missions and join her who continues to pray in heaven. For Christ to be known to everybody all over the face of the earth. That's, how we start the month of October. |
| Ashley | Thank you. Monsignor, thank you for joining us. |
| Msgr Landry | Great to be with you once again, Ashley. Happy world. Miss you. Mark. You. |