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Episode Description
Political asylee and Hong Kong activist Frances Hui speaks about her arrest warrant and why Catholics need the Church’s leadership, not silence. Hui urges the Church to be a “voice for the voiceless” and to “stand with the persecuted through prayer and public solidarity.”
We also talk with The Becket Fund’s Joe Davis about the ACLU’s efforts to block statues of Saints Michael and Florian – the patron saints of police officers and fire fighters – from being erected outside of a public building.
Msgr. Roger Landry also joins with a look at Venerable Fulton Sheen. The 20th century archbishop is known for his heroic virtue and pioneering work in radio and television and is recognized as one of the first televangelists.
Catch the show every Saturday at 7amET/5pmET on EWTN radio! And subscribe to our media monitoring digest to get our carefully curated daily list of Catholic news delivered straight to your inbox every morning for free.
Bios
Frances Hui is Policy and Advocacy Coordinator at the Committee for Freedom in Hong Kong Foundation (CFHK), and Founder and Executive Director of We The HongKongers. She leads policy and advocacy research on Hong Kong and China focused on the rule of law, political prisoners, accountability, and human rights. The first Hong Kong activist to receive asylum in the US, she began her social activism at age 14. In December of 2023, Hong Kong authorities issued a $1 million bounty on her for accusations of “colluding with foreign forces,” precluding any possibility of her return to Hong Kong. She has briefed US officials on the plight of Hong Kong citizens and organized global rallies in support of their freedom and democracy. While she continues to advocate for human rights in Hong Kong, she notes she has found safety but not peace in the US, as many of her family members and supporters in her homeland continue to live under threat.
Joe Davis is senior counsel at The Becket Fund and a public voice for religious liberty. He has represented religious and governmental organizations in precedent-setting victories in both federal and state circuit courts. He has appeared in national media outlets including Fox News and radio and print outlets, and his academic work on religious liberty has been published in the Yale Law Journal Forum and the Notre Dame Law Review among others. Before joining Becket, he served as a litigator in New Orleans in commercial, criminal, and bankruptcy law, and he previously clerked for the Honorable E. Grady Jolly of the US Court of Appeals Fifth Circuit. He graduated with highest honors from the University of Virginia School of Law and was recognized as one of the top religious liberty scholars in the nation. He also holds a B.A. in Economics and a minor in Religion from Mississippi State University. He is married to his high school sweetheart and has four children.
Monsignor Roger Landry is a priest of the Diocese of Fall River, Massachusetts. A graduate of Harvard and the Pontifical North American College in Rome, he served as Attaché to the Holy See’s Permanent Observer Mission to the UN in New York. In 2024, he was appointed the new National Director of the Pontifical Mission Societies in the USA by Pope Francis. He writes for numerous publications, speaks on radio and TV, and served as executive editor for the weekly newspaper of the Diocese of Fall River. He is the author of the book, Plan of Life: Habits to Help You Grow Closer to God, and he leads pilgrimages to Rome, the Holy Land, and other sacred destinations. He was an on-site commentator for EWTN’s coverage of the 2013 papal conclave that elected Pope Francis. He is national chaplain for Catholic Voices USA and New York Chaplain for the Leonine Forum. Father Landry traversed the full 1500-mile Eucharist Pilgrimage in 2024, an event which coincided with his 25th year in the priesthood.
The following transcript is machine generated.
Episode 340 Transcript
| Ashley/Betsy | Welcome to conversations with consequences on EWTN radio. I'm your host is Ashley McGuire, and today we are very privileged to be joined by Francis Way. She is a political activist who has been granted asylum to live here in the United States because of her advocacy for faith and freedom in Hong Kong. And she is also the author of Hostile Takeover the CCP and Hong Kong's Religious Communities. Francis, welcome to the show. |
| Frances Hui | Thank you. Thanks for having me. |
| Ashley/Betsy | So, Francis, you just, wrote a piece weighing in on Cardinal Chow's comments about persecution, the Catholic Church. And he said some things that I think were surprising. Specifically, he said there's no persecution going on. And he said explicitly, come and see for yourself. And you responded by saying, I wish I could, but I can't. Tell us more. What did you mean by that? |
| Frances Hui | Yeah. So, well, the the Cardinal Chow in, in his recent remarks, he was saying that there is no religious persecution in Hong Kong. And he invited critics to, you know, come and see for herself, that, I think what he meant is, you know, people can still go to mass. They can still worship. The churches are still intact. So religious freedom supposedly are fine. And but in my perspective, that's different. First of all, I can't take that, you know, invitation because I, is I'm wanted by the Hong Kong government for $1 million bounty on my head, for my advocacy in the US for democracy and human rights. For speaking up on, Hong Kong issues. Second of all, I think what he didn't what Cardinal Health didn't cover is that people as religious lives have fundamentally changed after, the CCP have tightened control over the city, especially on the religious sphere. It's across the board that political, activism and, you know, any any topics about human rights, and religious freedom can no longer, exist in Hong Kong. You would violate the law and you will be arrested and charged. And so, people, it's it's undeniable that the religious lives have changed. The church in Hong Kong has historically been very outspoken on issues related to human rights and for, religious freedom and the religious persecution in mainland China. As we all know, the situation in mainland China is much more, severe, right? Like churches get demolished. People, who refuse to, you know, take the oath of fidelity to the government are arrested. So just recently we saw, you know, a major crackdown on, one of the Christian church, underground church. And so, Hong Kong used to be that church that would speak up for those people that are persecuted in China. We no longer can do that anymore. And and so, you know, when Cardinal Chao sets religious freedom, is still intact. And he also said that Beijing wants Hong Kong to have religious freedom because Hong Kong is important. I mean, he he didn't he forget he, he just missed out this part about this whole of practicing your faith and living out your life under this faith. It's part of religious freedom, too. It's. You know, how we're. When when when, When during masses, when sermons are being censored. When when priests no longer can talk about what's going on in the society, what's affecting the people on the ground, it's very hard to tell the story of Jesus. It's very hard to tell the Bible story and to relate to people's life. And so we obviously see people struggling with their faith in Hong Kong, because you don't no longer see leadership from the church. No longer see someone who would, you know, stand up for them. Especially for, you know, Coroner Cho, with his moral authority as the bishop of Hong Kong. You know, he has the position to speak up for the voiceless. And it's it's disappointing that he didn't. And I think this is not just my perspective. I have heard, many other Catholics around the world, especially Chinese complex and Catholics from Hong Kong. Many share the same sentiments. Even even people. Freest in Hong Kong, in the Hong Kong diocese. They have concerns over, his remarks. |
| Ashley/Betsy | Well, and his his comments certainly does seem off key, especially, you know, as we saw last week, that the wife and daughter of Jimmy Lai, who is probably the most well known, he's become almost the face of Hong Kong, really. He's certainly become the face of conscience rights to the world. Continues to languish in a, you know, in solitary confinement. Tell us, what has Cardinal Chow said about Jimmy Lai? And how do people like you who have really suffered for your courage? View the church's, kind of unfortunate silence on Jimmy Lee's case. |
| Frances Hui | Yeah. So I would say Colonel Chow has Cardinal Chow, and the church leadership has not once mentioned to me Lai's case, publicly and we know that he personally has has never reached out to Jimmy. And, that's something I also covered in my piece. And we know that Jimmy Lai, as you said, he has been, suffering from solitary confinement for as long as his trial has started. It's been five years since he, lost her freedom out of, Hong Kong prison. And, he doesn't have regular access to the Holy Communion. And I think that's a fundamental, religious right for someone to have regular access for a Catholic, a devout Catholic, to have regular access to Holy Communion, even though they are behind prison walls. He's not even convicted yet. And and he's stripped away from his, you know, religious rights. And the Hong Kong diocese have doesn't seem to have fought for his rights. This is the the basic, very minimal thing that the Catholic Church should do to, you know, especially since this case is also very prominent, very well attended by the international community, global Catholic community. People want to see some kind of, you know, support from the leadership from the church, from the Hong Kong church. And we're not seeing that. And for myself, I, you know, I'm I have been Catholic since I was I was baptized as a baby. I have never, you know, like I, I've never really received any like no one reach out to me from the Hong Kong diocese to, to try to support or any like, to provide at least some kind of pastoral care or whatnot. Like, I think, I think the Hong Kong church has kind of separates their themselves from touching the political issue. And and they probably see that because I myself, I am I'm being repressed. I, I'm facing repression because of my political activism, because of the fact that I, support democracy and human rights and that's, not what the CCP like. And Jimmy Lai, too. He's not really arrested because of practicing faith. But but if we really think about it, technically he is, and I am too, because we were taught as a Catholic to speak up, to speak the truth, to stand with the truth, to speak for the voiceless, to stand up for the oppressed. And that's exactly what we do in our political activism, because people's voice is not being listened to by the CCP. Our freedom is being stripped away. And and so we're speaking up for the silenced. And that's why we are being punished. We're taking the consequences. So that's part of us practicing our Catholic faith. And and that was what we were punished for. And so I think I think Cardinal Chow doesn't really see that way. And, and I think the, the increased engagement he has and the church has with the Chinese side could sometime make, make them adopt more and more of that Chinese rhetoric. And so that's why I don't know if that's the reason why. But, you know, we're seeing church leadership. They're using CCP language. They are speaking up on the oppressed ends instead of the, the, the oppressing. And instead of the, the, the, the community that are being silenced and oppressed. Yeah. |
| Ashley/Betsy | You mentioned that you were baptized Catholic. Tell us about your faith journey and how it is that, you came to be such an outspoken advocate and even how, you know, your, your journey to the United States and, and being someone with a bounty on their head. |
| Frances Hui | Well, the Catholic faith has always been a huge part of my childhood. I grew up in a Catholic family. Everyone is very devout, and, I was a part of the altar service in my church. And, my family, it's more so like, we're in the solution community, too. So, growing up, I was part of the solution youth movement. And cardinals and, cardinals. And it's also a solution. And so I think part of solutions, spirit and value is to, be with the young people and, you know, stand with them no matter what, what's, you know, situation. And I, I totally feel that when I grow up, like, I have lots of peers and peers, you know, that we're all and share the same face. And I think I look up to I think overall the church has, like I said, has always been historically been very outspoken on issues related to human rights and religious freedom. And I think very naturally, because of that background, I care a lot about, you know, people who are not able to speak for on their own, people that are, that have their voice stripped away. People who are underprivileged, and and people that need help. You know, I, I think I'm not the most wealthy people person. I don't have a wealthy background, but I think whatever I can provide, care or, you know, whatever I can do, I, I would always want to help people who are underprivileged or underserved. That's how I was raised by my family. And so. I guess naturally, when it comes to Hong Kong's situation, it it's just very naturally that I should be standing on the silenced, side. Like I said, the on the oppressed side. I do believe that as a Catholic, our fundamental value is to be the voice of the voiceless. And we should care for people who are underserved. And so, yeah, I guess it's just very not like it. Just come as an instinct that I, that I, I'm, I want to fight for the future of Hong Kong and Hong Kongers rights to express themselves. And and, you know that that it's not that doesn't work well with the CCP, the controlling party of Hong Kong. And so that's why now I'm, you know, in the US, as you know, slyly and, you know, I, I would say I have a, I would say I have a privilege to speak for the people in Hong Kong because now I am able to speak. I'm able to be in the U.S., and I have the freedom to share these things. But Catholics in Hong Kong, they don't. And perhaps Cardinal Child don't see them. They don't. He doesn't hear them because they are oppressed. They're silenced. They self-censor and they they they they don't feel safe to share everything. Lost their, their, you know, oppressed and and so but I, I hope this piece would get him to see that actually, there are a lot of people in the Catholic community, even Hong Kong Catholics on the ground, and they are looking for leadership, from him. And they're looking for courage from him to stand with the truth. And speak for them, in this very difficult situation. |
| Ashley/Betsy | In your article, you talk about cynicism and especially in schools and reading it reminded me of what I've read about Castro's Cuba. You know, start the indoctrination young. For our listeners who don't understand what is cynicism and and how is that playing out? And, and filtering into life in Hong Kong? |
| Frances Hui | Since isolation is not a new concept, although, well, it's since isolation is not a new concept. For decades, the CCP have been, oppressing religious communities, including Tibetans, Uyghur, Muslim and, Christians and many other religions in China. But XI Jinping put the name on it. He name it's an association. And what it means is that religion. But for now, it would have to infuse, patriotic and socialist values. We should basically the party should, adapt it into their own religion. So they allow religions to exist only within their control. This is very different from I think people sometimes confuse association with indigenization, which is a concept that, when, a religion is brought in a new country, in a different country, their materials will be slightly adapted in their culture. For example, the Bible is translated in multiple different languages when it gets to, you know, different country around world. But it's different. They have this is synthesized. Nation is basically changing the teachings, changing the contents of a religion. And, you have the, United Front Network, you know, from work department basically controlling, the religious affairs in China. So, there is a state entity that oversees, all the religious communities, religious groups in China. It's different in Hong Kong because Hong Kong is, in a different system. It's, you know, under the one country, two system principle. So religious freedom has always been kind of protected under the Basic Law in Hong Kong. But in 2020, China, I think everyone remembers there was like a big protest, a huge movement in 2019, pro-democracy protest. And that's the moment when CCP think that it's it's this is enough. We're not going to let you guys enjoy the freedom like we used to have. So in 2020, in 2020, they passed the imposed something called the National security law in Hong Kong. And it really overbought like over the board. It, pretty much crackdown on all the free speech. Anyone who speak against the CCP criticize the governments or have pro-democracy values or Western values, supported by Western organizations are all criminalized. And and so Hong Kong religious freedom, obviously are also affected because all the civic liberty are, repressed in Hong Kong now. And so we see the, the China is slowly, quietly, carefully implementing their policies in China to Hong Kong's religious sphere. And I laid it out a little bit on in the piece, on NCR, but also I detail all of that, in my report that was published last year. It was, you know, you can see that from every aspect, from education, from just day to day, like, religious teachings and homilies. You know, priest ability to, really connect to people through, you know, a proper religious teaching. They can no longer do that because everyone censor themselves. There are Catholic organizations that used to, speak up for human rights and religious persecution. And in China, they have been they have changed their scope. They can no longer touch on, topics about the church in China. Or anything related to us, you know, on the diaspora, because that's considered colluding with foreign forces. Which is one of the calls that could, that are criminalized, under the national security law. So, you know, Hong Kong situation, I always wanted to emphasize it's not as severe as in mainland China. Like I said, masses and, churches are still there. You know, people are still practicing their faith, but it's a soft form of control, that are defined by fear, self-censorship, indoctrination, and, and co-opt. Co-optation. |
| Ashley/Betsy | Well, Francis, we thank you so much for your courage. You are truly an inspiration. And we very much appreciate your time explaining the situation to us. And I commend our listeners to read our article in the National Catholic Register entitled Hong Kong Catholics Deserve the Church's leadership, not silence. Francis, thank you for your, voice and for all that you do and for joining me today. |
| Frances Hui | Thank you. Thanks so much. |
| Ashley/Betsy | And to find out more about the Catholic Association and all that we do, you can visit the Catholic association.com and you can find us on social media on Twitter and Facebook. Thank you. Welcome back to conversations with consequences, where I am once again joined by our terrific TCA chaplain, Monsignor Roger Landry. Monsignor Landry, we're going to talk about Fulton Sheen today and another interesting Catholic endeavor. Please tell us about those. |
| Msgr Landry | So I was asked to participate in the Catholics Engage Virtual Summit. And there they were focusing on something very close to my work and my heart, which is the whole theme of made for mission, that all of us as baptized Catholics, especially strengthened by the sacrament of confirmation, our missionaries, missionary disciples in communion. And so they definitely wanted to have the National Director of the Mission Society participate with their, great speakers that they had lined up in trying to help American Catholics participating in this program to understand the deep roots of our missionary vocation. And I decided to do Fulton J. Sheen and the mission of the church. Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen was my predecessor for 16 years. Is the the difficult, Mission Society's national director. And we're inching closer. Thanks be to God to his beatification, which I'm working very hard and praying very hard to make sure happens in 2026. So I had the chance for 45 minutes with, camera crew here in my office to record a presentation on Fulton J. Sheen and the way that he sought to help all Americans take up the missionary aspect of our Christianity. And so that was a lot of fun to do. And it was airing yesterday. It's part of this two day virtual summit. |
| Ashley/Betsy | Can people get access to that online, Monsignor? |
| Msgr Landry | So I'm not quite sure how they're doing it. Initially it was to sign up for the conference. Some people can afford it. Some people can't. My hope is after the conference, they're somehow going to make it possible for people to be able to share it at least the video is not, immediately accessible. But if anybody wants to find out more, they can certainly read the text of, what I used to speak, which is available at Catholic preaching.com for for free so people can have access to it. I just think Fulton J. Sheen is one of the most compelling American Catholics of all time, and one of the things that he focused on very much for 16 years of his life, and then gave 40% of all his effects once he died, was on spreading our faith to those places in the world which are too young to poor or too persecuted to be able to be self-sustaining. |
| Ashley/Betsy | Coming off on World Missions Sunday, that sounds like a great endeavor. And can you tell us more about your talk and some of the main points that you were trying to get across? |
| Msgr Landry | So I tried to stress a few things about Fulton J. Sheen's work in promoting the missions. The first is he shows us by example, the priority that missions to all nations means we've kind of, watered down the term mission. Fortune 500 companies have mission statements. Everybody has a mission to bring the faith to his next door neighbor. But when the church talks about missions in a strict sense, it's going to those who really haven't yet been evangelized at all. And when we look out at the world today, Betsy, 5.5 of the 8.1 billion people don't know Jesus Christ. So mission to all the nations are what we call them Latin Missio. Agentes is something that Fulton J. Sheen absolutely prioritized and tried to help us all take more seriously. The second, he used every means he could to try to spread the faith. We can all learn from him when that he used friendship, he used his holy orders every time that he preached. But he was also entrepreneurial. On radio. He became the biggest radio star from 1930 to 1950, when radio was new. He became the number one television program. As soon as people started to have television sets in their homes with with two programs that he had in the 50s and 60s, he wrote over 70 books in order to spread the faith. He wrote thousands of articles. He invented magazines to be able to spread it. Everything he was able to do, he used, which points us to the type of credit, creativity we're likewise supposed to have. Third, he made this the real priority of his life. He, despite all his business, despite all his travels, despite the 30 hours every week he would have to spend, which is almost a full time job preparing for his television program. He used to meet one on one with so many converts and get them ready for the faith. He was the instrument God had used to bring several communists to Christianity, several movie stars, several ambassadors, and then lots of people. He would just meet on elevators and on street corners. He took that instruction seriously and he could do it with all his responsibilities. Then what about you? What about me? What about all those who are now listening to us? And then finally, he, He showed us the way we're supposed to be an effective missionary because he always focused on the chief content of sharing the faith, which is what we're trying to share. Jesus. We're trying to share. At the same time we point others to Jesus. We're trying to share our faith in him and the difference that makes in a human life, Fulton J. Sheen was always very happy to talk about the witness of his own vocation story. The difference Jesus had made in his life, and the difference he believed Jesus wanted to make in everybody else's life. But he published over 70 books. But his greatest book of all time was the book. Called Life of Christ, in which he was trying to help us to enter in to the drama of the God-Man coming among us. And so we have our own stories. We're not trying to use somebody else's faith second hand Fulton J. Sheen and announcing Jesus was likewise announcing his faith. And vast multitudes of Americans found that testimony not only credible, but persuasive. And so I tried to elaborate on those points in the 45 minute talk I gave for the engaged virtual seminar. |
| Betsy | Welcome back to conversations with consequences. Miriam, once again joined by our terrific TCA chaplain, Monsignor Roger Landry. You know, your timing is perfect because I think just a couple of days ago, they broke ground on an institute in Peoria, Illinois, in the Midwest here where I live, that's going to be a museum dedicated to his life and his work. |
| Msgr Landry | In the chancery called the Spalding Center in Peoria. They already have a beautiful kind of one room museum, but they're converting the place where Fulton J. Sheen went to high school called Spalding High School, that converting that into a Sheen Welcome Center and then a Sheen Museum. So they're going to really be propping this up. And I'm happy to say publicly that I have been working with my friend who is the vice postulate or of the cause of Fulton J. Sheen in Peoria, Illinois, Monsignor Jason Gray. He and I were in seminary together in two different seminaries at Mount Saint Mary's in Emmitsburg, Maryland, and then at the Pontifical North American College in Rome to revivify the beatification cause. I'm Fulton J. Sheen, and we're both praying hard, and we're both working hard in hopes that we will have a beatification of Fulton J. Sheen soon. As soon as the bicentenary in the United States, next year, in 2026, we both are on the same page, thinking there'd be no better way for Catholics to be able to mark the 250th anniversary of the blessing of our country, and no greater way for us to look ahead, to see how we, as salt, light and leaven are supposed to really help our country live up to the high expectations we place in her. Then, beatified. Perhaps the most famous American Catholic of all time until the election of Pope Leo the 14th as the 267th Peter. So when I met with Pope Leo on October 4th, which was the second time I had the privilege to meet with him, I said that I'm really praying very hard, holiness, that your fellow Illinois native and my predecessor as the national director for 16 years will soon be lifted to the altars. And Pope Leo didn't commit. He smiled. He heard it very well. And as he was gripping my hands, he simply said yes. So, I'm hoping that he's on the same page as Monsignor Gray Bishop Tlca there in Illinois. But gazillions, to use the technical term of American Catholics, not to mention Catholics all across the globe in awaiting the beatification of the sort of one of the greatest preachers that the church has ever had. |
| Betsy | Well, we'll be joining you in prayer, Monsignor Landry, and thank you so much for joining us this week on conversations with consequences. |
| Msgr Landry | God bless you, Betsy. |
| Mary/Ashley | Welcome to conversations with consequences on EWTN radio. I am your hostess, Mary Fiorito, and I'm Ashley McGuire, and. |
| Betsy | I'm Betsy Fentress. |
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| Betsy | Welcome to conversations with consequences, now on EWTN radio. I'm your host is Betty Fentress, and we are catching up on an important religious freedom case today with Joe Davis of the Becket Fund. It's set in the town of Quincy, Massachusetts, where two Defenders of Justice statues are not being allowed to be placed on a public building just because they happen to be saints. Welcome to the show, Joe. And please tell us what's going on in Quincy, Massachusetts. |
| Joe Davis | Sure. Happy to do that and happy to be here. Thanks for having me. So I think you ended up, pretty well there, actually. So this is a, a case about the city of Quincy, Massachusetts. It's building a new public safety building, which is a headquarters for its police officers and its firefighters. And in order to try to beautify that building and make it a, you know, good looking space, it wants to erect statues on the building, one of Michael the Archangel, which is an important figure for police officers and one of florid, you know, noted Saint Louis to Catholics, who's an important figure for, firefighters now, these figures are, it's true, Catholic saints, but their significance goes, goes, goes quite a bit beyond that. And they've sort of become identified, with the practice of, you know, police officers and firefighters more generally, police officers and firefighters of many faiths and of those they are inspired by, these figures are sort of use these figures to symbolize their professions. And the point of the statues is to honor the firefighters and the police officers, to honor the first responders, and not to send some sort of religious message. Nonetheless, the city has been has been sued by the ACLU and the ACLU is saying, you know, because these figures are Catholic saints, they have some significance, to to the people of faith, you can't have them in public. I think that claim is is wrong. It would require us to tear down quite a bit of public art across this country, and it's going to be an exciting case. And we're making the arguments in court. |
| Betsy | Are there any legal precedent, Joe, for cases that are similar to this, whether it involves firefighters and police or just public buildings in general, where maybe the ACLU has? I mean, we know that there's been a lot of pushback on Christmas decorations and creches. What what what do you have in your arsenal to combat this? |
| Joe Davis | Absolutely. Yeah. Great question. So there is quite a bit of precedent over this. And it's kind of evolved. There was a time several decades ago when courts were going out and scrubbing away creches and things like that at the Christmas season. But more recently, the supreme U.S. Supreme Court has started to recognize that's actually discriminatory against religion, right? Our public spaces are full of lots of different aspects of our culture. And if we try to scrub away just the religious parts, we're going to send a very distorted message about about our history and our culture. So, recently there was a big case in the US Supreme Court involving a cross, a World War One memorial cross that was in a sort of public, space in Bladensburg, Maryland. And the Supreme Court said, of course, the cross is religious. It's the central image of the Christian faith. That said, it also has this broader meaning in terms of memorializing the war dead and murals. Maryland is perfectly within its rights to, to put it, to maintain a cross, for that purpose. There were also the cases about the Ten Commandments, right. Of course, the Ten Commandments are religious. Nobody disputes that. Too many people. But at the same time, they're also, you know, a broader sort of foundation of Western law and Western civic morality. And so governments are able to display the Ten Commandments in public spaces. There was a case about the Texas State Capitol building several years ago. And so these are the kind of precedents that are in play here. You know, this is the case. It's in Massachusetts and under Massachusetts state law. So the issues are are slightly different in that respect. But Massachusetts, like the rest of the country, has many symbols in its public spaces that have religious significance. It has a very rich history of the Puritans, the pilgrims and all of that, and those that history is reflected in Massachusetts as public spaces. So, you know, I think this case is going to implicate a lot of the same principles of the cross case, take advantage cases that we just talked about. |
| Betsy | Do you think it makes any difference that they're Catholic saints or a cross is used universally throughout all Christian denominations? But what about the fact that they're Catholic? Is there a little bit of anti-Catholic sentiment going on here, or do you think it's just because it's it's religious? |
| Joe Davis | Yeah. Look, I mean, so figures that are also Catholic saints are part of that same broad tradition of religious displays across across the country. So, you know, there's a there's a large equestrian statue of Saint Louis and Saint Louis, Missouri. Right? There's, within that, within the where I live. Okay. There you go. Oh, are you familiar with this? Within the, you know, Statuary Hall in the US Capitol, each state has sort of given two statues that represent it. There are many Catholic saints that represented in that, including coniferous or off from California. So the fact that these figures are also Catholic saints really doesn't take them out of that tradition, you know, and, and I'd also note that they're, they're more than that. Right. So Michael is a Catholic saint. He's also a figure of, of Jewish scripture, of, of, of Islamic scripture. And he has a significance as, a defender against wrongdoing. So it's really no surprise that, police officers identify with him. Military service members identify with him, and, you know, sometimes for entirely non-religious reasons. |
| Betsy | Are there any other buildings that you know of in your research that have Michael or Florian? Prominently on display? |
| Joe Davis | There are in fact, there's, no other fire department. So, so first off, many fire departments across the country use something called the Florian Cross. And I suspect that all your audience would be familiar with this. They may not know it's called the flooding and across, but that's that's where it comes from. It's associated with the saint figure. But, you know, we're aware of, fire department out of California that has a giant mural on the side of Florian, you know, very similar to what Quincy is trying to do here. There are police stations that have had a statue of Michael to commemorate, deceased, you know, officers killed in the line of duty. There's even a a, United States Navy ship. That's called the USS Michael Mont, sir, but it has a, a it's symbol on the on the ship is the arm of an angel holding a sword, which is a reference to Michael, the same figure that Quincy is trying to, use to honor and inspire its police officers here. So there's nothing unusual about what he's doing. The only thing that's unusual is that, you know, we're making this big constitutional dispute out of it. |
| Betsy | And how is the mayor lining up? On which side is he on, or has he been very vocal or any other public figures in Quincy? |
| Joe Davis | Yeah, no, the mayor, the mayor, you know, has, has has chosen these statues in order to honor and inspire his police officers and his firefighters. Like, he understands that these these figures are important to his first responders. And that's why he wants the statues to go up. And the first responders have been quite clear in their support for this plan, like they've showed up in this lawsuit represented by their unions and said, we want these statues like they will help us do our job better and protect everybody in the city of Quincy, of course, without distinction, a distinction, according to religion. So, you know, the police officers, the firefighters want them. The statues are for them, and they ought to be able to have them. |
| Betsy | They were commissioned the pretty hefty price tag. How much? $780,000. Something like that. Yeah. |
| Joe Davis | Look, I mean, this is this is, this is real art. These statues are being prepared by, you know, a European based sculptor. |
| Betsy | They're beautiful. Yeah. |
| Joe Davis | I'm sorry I. |
| Betsy | Said they're beautiful. |
| Joe Davis | Right. He's the same sculptor that, did statues in Quincy of of John Adams and John Hancock, sort of reflecting Quincy history. He's also been commissioned to do, you know, federal monuments in Washington, D.C.. So, you know, this is this is an effort to to honor and inspire first responders. It's also an effort to beautify Quincy's public spaces. And it really shouldn't have to answer for that. And, you know, in a lawsuit, this is a question for for architects and city planners rather than the judges. |
| Betsy | So what are the next steps, Joe, in this case? |
| Joe Davis | Yeah. So, unfortunately the, the there was a trial judge ruling that agreed with the plaintiffs and said that because these statues have religious meaning, you can't have them on the building. So it sort of temporarily blocked the installation. But the next step is, of course, appeal, which is, you know, like we where this case would have been going either way, you know, regardless of what the trial judge said. And so the appeal will be filed, in the next coming in the coming weeks. And we look forward to presenting these arguments to the Massachusetts appeals courts. And, and, you know, get them to recognize that, you know, public art, is not off limits. Just because it may have religious meaning. It's, |
| Betsy | Do you feel like you have a pretty solid case based on your precedent you've talked about and other displays, like in California, that you mentioned? |
| Joe Davis | Certainly the precedent, the fact that this is a long standing tradition and the fact that this would really, you know, work a sea change in terms of what we'd have to go around the country scrubbing away monuments left and right. I don't think anybody, wants to do that. And there's certainly no constitutional requirement to do it. |
| Betsy | Would this ever get to the Supreme Court if the appeals process were to continue? |
| Joe Davis | It could. Look, I mean, you know, the the claims here under Massachusetts law. But, you know, ultimately, what what the plaintiffs are asking for is for a rule that, you know, discriminates against against religion and says we have to have a public square that's been scrubbed of religion, that's actually that has federal constitutional implications. And those questions could absolutely go to the US Supreme Court. If the Massachusetts courts, though Dolan in the right place, although we anticipate, and expect them to do so. |
| Betsy | We will look forward to watching this case. And thank you so much, Joe Davis of The Becket Fund, for joining us. To learn more about the Catholic Association, visit us at Catholic association.org to follow everything we do online, print, radio and TV. Thanks again for joining us, Joe. |
| Joe Davis | Thanks, Bethany. Appreciate it. |
| Mary/Ashley | So this morning my son was reading the front page of the newspaper. And you know, he's I have five kids. Three of them are, you know, very attuned to what's going on in the world. And he noticed that, Bad Bunny is going to be the halftime performance at the Super Bowl. And he's ten years old. And his response was, Bad Bunny is going to perform the Super Bowl halftime. That's so inappropriate. And I was startled. And I find it to be such a sad commentary on the time that we live in that a ten year old understands, that content that's going to be viewed by millions upon millions of children is inappropriate. And it he's absolutely right. I mean, Bad Bunny, his performances have been described as demonic. You know, he has a picture of himself in a dress, and I saw a funny Babylon bee, story that was like, oh, this is a great way to make overtures to the other side is make a man, who's wearing a dress, perform at the Super Bowl halftime. But it's truly sad, and I know that every parent understands that when the Super Bowl halftime show comes on, you pretty much have to turn off the TV and then decide if you're going to let them watch it later. But this is a consistent theme that I'm noticing and I've been thinking about, which is that, sporting events and even just public venues more broadly are not appropriate for children anymore. And another thing I've been thinking about are airplanes. Recently my husband and I took our daughter on an international flight, and the man sitting next to her watched a movie that she still, years later, talks about how upsetting it was. The content on the movie. My husband was on a business trip last week, and he said the man in front of him was watching a show that was so graphically violent. He was struggling with whether or not to say something, but sporting events, I mean, this is a theme. Look at the Olympics and the the performance that they had. That was so vile and inappropriate and outright offensive to Christians. Look at the LA Dodgers, you know, mocking nuns with drag. And I don't know what I was thinking about you, Lea, because, you know, you have teenage kids and I don't know, how do you how do you balance the challenge of, you know, kids who who enjoy sports, who want to watch, who want to watch these events? But but shielding them from some content that's just not appropriate. You know, it's hard. I think that saying that, I mean, I've heard those little voices like this isn't appropriate or even something like, you know, a true crime series that they happen to, you know, we think they're busy and they walk in and they're like, why are you watching this, mom and dad? So it's not even always just the broadcaster or the organization to blame. Like I say, these kids, I think they're really into that sort of, you know, thing that's inappropriate. Or, you know, if you've you've done a reasonable job up until that point, they can start to spot it on their own. What is normal content for them and what's not normal? I don't know. It is hard. I mean, my oldest is 20 now, so we kind of, you know, he we hope that he's got the tools to be able to discriminate what's going on out there. But clearly, I mean, he lives in his own apartment and he's going to and he watches sports constantly. But I think for him, I don't know, I at least feel like if he says, like, I can't believe they did that on TV, I feel like, okay, for the younger ones, it's, a lot of distractions. You know, I think if you want to enjoy the sports. But let's. Yeah. And we know that every. Yeah. Like, not to. I just wanted to jump in because what's really changed here fundamentally in terms of how our kids are protected. Is everybody going to streaming services rather than watching network TV? So I was at the hairdresser last week and, you know, she's washing my hair, she's blowing my hair, and I'm just looking at something I, I think it was it. I'm not even sure Netflix or something, but it was sex scenes now between a married couple, but so graphic. I was like, why am I seeing this inside the hair salon? And so they're not they don't have the same FCC standards applied to them. And I know those who know me know I'm a critical, sorry, Criminal Minds junkie as it's like my favorite show. And they have this new season now, it's not on the NBC network, but it's on Paramount Plus. And so and I tell you, every other words in F-bomb, you know, and, and I thought what? And then some just very graphic, not just violence, but very graphic sex stuff. It stops at a certain point, and, and comically. But, it's it leaves nothing to the imagination. And I think that's a growing concern because parents unless, you know, and we have every because my husband and I security person, we have every filter known to God and man in our house. But still, stuff seeps through. And I think that's a real issue with the streaming services. But this is my point about like, airplanes. I mean, if you go on an airplane, there is no FCC standard. I mean, you can turn on explicit R-rated content. And and increasingly that's seeping into, in my opinion, even sporting events. And okay, you could say, sure, you could choose to never fly in an airplane, never take your child to a sporting event. But we've basically created a public square that's, by definition, not appropriate for young children. And I feel like we can do better than that. And I guess it's up to us as parents to push back. But, you should be able to take your child on a plane and not worry about them seeing, you know, explicit language and subtitles, graphic sex scenes and graphic violence. Yeah. |
| Betsy | Well, it's even about it at restaurants. I mean, I find that if I want to take my grandchildren, every restaurant that's not super fancy has TVs everywhere, and they're not used to that. And I find that my daughter says, well, mom, depends what restaurant it is. Which is really sad. |
| Mary/Ashley | Yeah, because even ads like during sporting events, it's not even just like set ups for the halftime shows. I mean, the ads that they show are really, definitely scandalized my boys. I mean, I remember a long time ago, my eldest, because I was still like a big Condé Nast reader. I got all the glossy magazine magazines, and I just never had never even thought about it. But he said to me, mom, these magazines really make me uncomfortable. And so I ended all the subscriptions right then. But because I do think, I do think kids have that, like, innate sweet wholesomeness, but they shouldn't have to do their own filtering. It should be, you know, de rigueur to have family friendly ads if you have to have ads at a family friendly event, like a sporting event. Yeah. I mean, we had to actually pay somebody to come into our house because to your point about streaming services, we don't have cable TV. We just have a bunch of streaming services. But what what we found was with a Roku TV, if you turn it on, there can be an ad for a show that is R-rated. It's just turning the TV on. And there's we had to pay somebody who had to work the code from the back end to turn that off. There's no way to filter it for like, make sure you know the ads, or because you can put on like your Disney Plus and your Netflix make things to be, you know, set to G-rated. But there's still the ads, and it's just, you know, but even that, I'm like, you know, people can choose to to, you know, not have a TV or not let their children watch TV. But but it it seems like the simple act of taking your child out into public has become a like a Mario Kart experience of trying to dodge and distract from inappropriate content. And, and I think there's a real conversation to be had nationally about this in terms of what we are promoting at sporting events. Is, are, are are sporting events now just an R-rated adult experience? Because that's kind of what it feels like as a mom? No, I think a lot of it has to do with the economics of, you know, selling ad space and what ads for what products come out, you know, and whatever calculation people who work in that, you know, in advertising, you know, figure out that what makes the most money and that's what they're going to do, you know, and I think they don't really care about our kids, unfortunately. Well, so looking ahead to Super Bowl Sunday, I mean fortunately it's a ways off. So you have time to plan. But unfortunately I think the bad bunny thing is a reminder that, the entertainment industry does not care about your kids and the onus is on us to protect them. I mean, I know, we definitely turn off, the, the halftime show and decide later if we're going to let our kids watch it. And there have been some that have been perfectly fun and fine and, and, you know, we've got YouTube so you can let them watch it later. I know one mom who actually turns off all ads, and I don't think that's a bad idea. I mean, whether it's, a show that they're watching, I mean, we know that even streaming services now have ads. And they just straight up turn the ads off, for anything that they're watching. And I think that's another smart option, too. So those are two things that parents can be thinking about. But definitely, you know, you always want to check and make sure all your streaming services are password protected. I mean, the the industry is constantly moving the goalposts and changing things. So it's it's it's always healthy to do kind of like a little technology check up on your home and make sure that, settings and things are secure. In this digital age with our kids. |
| Betsy | We like to take a moment to thank all of our loyal listeners who tune in each week to conversations with consequences. As you all know, the Catholic Association is everywhere. We were on TV to cover the conclave and the election of the new Pope. We're in print, we're online, and we're on social media. We've just launched a new Substack to expand our media presence and offer more great content from a Catholic perspective. We're on ex, and now we're on Substack for Catholic Conversations with TCA, where we're featuring exciting new interviews, commentaries, videos, and more featuring our four fellows Ashley McGuire, Mary Fiorito, Lee Sneed, and Betty Fentress. And we'll be having guest columnists each week as well. Just recently, Lee Sneed writes about her forthcoming book and infertility titled Infertile But Fruitful, and explains why she decided to write the book. So many people had responded to her columns and podcasts on her journey toward becoming an adoptive mother that she felt called to write a full length book about it. In lessons from the Turn Away Study, Mary Fiorito writes about mothers who wanted to abort their children initially, but were turned away for various reasons and had a very different take on their initial decision. As years passed and Betsy Fentress writes on hospitality and the will to live about her friend's father and a family friend with no relatives who were brought back to life by food, attention and love. We hope you'll subscribe to our Substack. It's free. You'll find it at Catholic association.substack.com, and we'd love for you to join us in our continuing Catholic conversations. |
| Mary/Ashley | You know, it's we're coming up on November, which of course, is the month of All Souls. I know that Monsignor Landry's organization, the Pontifical Mission Societies, they accept something called Gregorian masses for, for any time of year. But it's particularly done during November for the Holy Souls in Purgatory, where you have 30 consecutive masses sent for 30 days for one particular deceased person. Who may still be in purgatory, very few priests can accept that particular, request because, you know, 30 consecutive days is not easy to do in a parish. But missionary priests can, and it's a way to support them and then also to support the Holy Souls in purgatory. So we might ask one senior Landry, about that the next time he's he's with us to talk about how important those Gregorian masses are, and that his organization is a trustworthy organization that then will be able to give those stipends to a priest in a mission country. Well, with all the negative news in the world, it's exciting to have two positive stories to reflect on this week. And that's really the beauty of the clips is, you know, we don't turn away from the negative stories. We look at them, we analyze them in the clips, but we also help to, draw out those hopeful stories that were, you know, as Catholics called to reflect on and be a part of. And so we commend, our clip service to all of our listeners every morning, the Catholic Association reviews all the latest news and sends our subscribers a carefully curated collection of the most important news of the day. Items are specifically selected for a smart Catholic audience like you. Don't let the world take you by surprise. Subscribe to our daily media roundup at the Catholic Association Board. Betsy and Mary, thanks for reflecting on the news of the week with us today. Thank you to be with you. |